3rd West Cork Brigade

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3rd West Cork Brigade

Postby bannerman on Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:18 am

Hello lads.
Bob - a.k.a. Fenian 98 here has an Irish War of Independence re-enactment group based in the U.S.
I met Bob, Jason and Mark from his group and we did some re-enacting in Bunratty and Kilmichael back in 2002. I have to say I hink they have the best W.O.I. kit Ive ever seen - and from what I know of them they are sound fellas too.
Bobs just joined the board but I know he is far too modest to shamelessly self promote so heres the http address for his group
http://www.geocities.com/thirdcorkbrigade/

Everyone interested in the period should check it out. I think we can learn alot from them. If these "Yanks" can do such a good job of it then so should we!

Padraig
http://www.warofindependence.net/

"Is doigh linn gur mor iad na daoine mora mar atamuid fein ar ar nglunaibh. - Eirimis!!!"
Jim Larkin 1913
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Re: 3rd West Cork Brigade

Postby euryalus on Mon May 11, 2009 1:41 pm

I do not wish to sound over-critical, but how accurate is the information on the "3rd West Cork" website. The photographs which purport to show "Black & Tans" (that is to say ordinary policemen) look more like "RIC Cadets" to me - did the ordinary RIC wear Tam o'Shanters?) And what about the Tom Barry information. The Dictionary of National Biography online states that he was born "on 1 July 1897 in Killorglin, co. Kerry, the eldest son and second of eleven children of Thomas Barry, a policeman, and his wife, Margaret Donovan, both of co. Cork". It also states that he joined the IRA in the summer of 1920, and proposed a war in "the North" before resigning over the proposed bombing campaign in England. There are some obvious contradictions here between the DNB information and that provided on the 3rd Wesr Cork site. (By the way, I have just noticed that the Tom Barry DNB information was contributed by Peter Hart).
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Re: 3rd West Cork Brigade

Postby bannerman on Mon May 11, 2009 10:57 pm

Hello Stanley,
Im pictured wearing a tan o shanter in their photo book from when they visited Ireland and meet up with me in 2002. Youre right only Auxies / R.I.C. Auxialiaries / R.I.C. Cadets whatever you want to call them wore tam o shanters. Black and Tans did not. However it is true to say that most accounts of the Irish War of Independence/Anglo Irish War often lump the R.I.C. / Auxies/ and British Army are all simply refered to as "Tans". This However does not fully excuse the mistake. The group will have to speak for the historical accounts they posted on the page. Im recommending them because for my money they do the very best Flying Column impression I've ever seen.
But it is true that Barry did propose I.R.A. attacks / raids / military campaigns both at the 18th June 1922 meeting of the I.R.A. and again in the late 1930s. Barry did resigned from the I.R.A. in opposition to Sean Russel's bombing campaign in Britain arguing that it would be counterproductive. As far as I can recall - yes he was the son of an R.I.C. man and Killorglin rings a bell also. But I cant state these later two for certain. For a more detailed biography of Barry I would recommend Meda Ryan's "Tom Barry I.R.A. Freedom Fighter" Published by Mercier Press Cork.

As for Peter Harte... See the wikipedia article on him or the Kilmichael ambush. All I will say is that I know of no other University lecturer with a P.H.D. who makes such exceptionaly contraversial claims and then refuses to name his sources. Any one interested in Tom Barry should read the following:

Guerilla Days in Ireland by Tom Barry - Anvil Press
Tom Barry I.R.A. Freedom Fighter by Meda Ryan - Mercier Press
Towards Ireland Free by Liam Deasy - Mercier Press.
Barry's Flying Column. (A rare book these days, written by an English author)
Curious Journey by Ken Griffith
Survivors By Uinseann Mc Eoin

And if you want to delve into the Kilmichael contraversy read;
Spies, Informers and the Anti Sinn Fein Society in Cork by John Borgovono
The I.R.A. and Its Enemies. Violence and Community In Cork by Peter Harte
The Origins of British Propoganda in Ireland by Brian P. Murphy.

Read all the above and make up your own mind.

As a final note. If we are going to delve into the history presented on re-enactment groups web pages (and its easy for my group to talk we still dont have a web page!!! Maea Culpa!) the serious question has to be asked does any one in Britain re-enact WW1 period Essex Regiment or Royal Highland Light Infantry. If so id be exceptionaly interested to see what they write up on their web pages and what they tell the public about their regiments time in Ireland. I strongly suspect I could tell them a few home truths.

Padraig
http://www.warofindependence.net/

"Is doigh linn gur mor iad na daoine mora mar atamuid fein ar ar nglunaibh. - Eirimis!!!"
Jim Larkin 1913
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Re: 3rd West Cork Brigade

Postby euryalus on Tue May 12, 2009 11:50 am

As I say, I do not want to be over-critical of historical details included in a living history web site, although I did wonder about Tom Barry's birthplace details. I wondered, also, if anyone has seen the DNB information, or has any comments. It said that he had refused a commission in the Munsters, and had originally trained for the priesthood.

My main interest was in the "Forces of Occupation" pictures. This one, for example, is said to be a Black & Tan and an Auxiliary, possibly because one of them has puttees and the other is wearing leather gaiters. I had assumed that they were both Auxiliaries, and that the event was posed - although, sadly, it looks as if there is a dead body lying in the roadway behind the three figures. By the way, I do not know who has the copyright of this image, which has nevertheless turned up in several places.

Regarding the Essex Regiment, I do not know about living history groups, but there has been some work done on their time in the south of Ireland - I think it was on The Great War Forum. They seem to have lost quite a few men during the "Troubles". I think it was about eighteen or nineteen, including men such as 5999062 Pte. J.A. Knight and 5999140 L/Cpl H.L. Stubbs, who were Kidnapped and then killed at Bandon on 23/2/21. Most of the casualties seem to have taken place in the West Cork area, which may have been because Tom Barry, as a former soldier, was trying to show that he was not a spy or "double agent" (?)

As a matter of interest, and in support of what Padraig has said, the historian who compiled the list of Essex Regiment victims referred to there being a "Black Hole" in relation to the regiment's role in the "Troubles" - though I think they are trying to fill-in the gaps.

r
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Re: 3rd West Cork Brigade

Postby fenian98 on Tue May 12, 2009 4:10 pm

Gents

I have an obituary (from a Cork paper) claiming
Barry was born in Rosscarbery, Co. Cork.
Several other sources also list Rosscarbery as well.

Might be the Corkers trying to claim Barry as their own.

I have also read the Co. Kerry provenance.

I will have to check the source of "Proscribe, Co Cork" listed on our website.
I did the layout of the site as opposed to the content.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Hopefully, I can find out where he actually was born.

On to the TANS:

Attached is a photo of an early R.I.C.
recruit. Note the British EM uniform worn
with a Tam-o-Shanter.

The problem with the period is the blurring of
R.I.C. men and R.I.C. "Auxiliary Cadets"
into the boogeymen known as the "Black & Tans".

The Tam was not exclusive to the "Auxies" or "Tans".
The main difference between the two groups
is the uniforms, former ranks & payscale.

Black & Tans (being pulled from former British enlisted and NCO ranks)
wore a mix of R.I.C. (Dark Green/Black) and British EM (Khaki/Tan) kit.
Hence the nickname.
They were under the direction of the R.I.C.

The fellow on the left in the most likely "staged"
photo Stanley uploaded bears this out wearing Brit EM
kit with puttees and Tam.
The fellow on the right (also in Tam) clearly wears
a Brit Officers tunic and Officers leather leggings.

Auxiliary Cadets were drawn from the British officer corps.
The generally wore their own British Officers Tunics and also
supplemented their kit with articles of R.I.C. uniform
and varying Tams. It does seem that the Auxies preferred a Balmoral type
Tam as well but this isn't mutually exclusive either.

While these two groups sometimes worked together,
the "Auxies" had free reign in the Irish Countryside and were
nominally under the control of the R.I.C.

Many of the reports of atrocities and reprisals are linked
to the Auxiliary Cadets as opposed to the "Black and Tans".
This was due to the Auxies freedom to deal with the
(Shinners) Sinn-Feiners as they saw fit.

Regards
Bob
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Re: 3rd West Cork Brigade

Postby mountcashel on Wed May 13, 2009 12:30 pm

Hi lads-
re who wore Tam O shanters, id forward my researched opinion that it was worn exclusively by the Auxiliaries...look at a photo in Bennetts "The Black and Tans" and youll see a mixed line of RIC and tans being inspected, the tan clearly is outfitted with the peaked cap of the RIC...also"Police Casualties in Ireland" (I forget the authors name) shows an Australian(!) tan in Midleton with some others, and again the uniform is the same as the rank and file RIC man, as deficiencies had been made up by late 1920...only the "Auxies " continues to sport the mixed uniform, also i have rarely seen evidence of rank and file tans wearing puttees, so is say the two fellas in that holdup and search photo are both Auxiliaries.
Id agree that the Auxiliaries were the chief offenders when it came to atrocities because of the "free hand" policy, some tan outposts were quite notable for their inaction. And as many tans were parcelled out in handfulls to whichever police barracks needed them, they didnt have the same group identity as the self contained Auxiliary companies, and many just adopted a "marking time" attitude.That doesnt absolve them as a group from atrocities, but i think that the Auxiliaries were the chief offenders.
Rgds
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Re: 3rd West Cork Brigade

Postby euryalus on Fri May 15, 2009 11:13 pm

I am not entirely sure what is meant by a "free hand" policy in relation to the RIC Auxiliaries. From what information I have been able to glean from primary sources, they seemed to have worked with the army, rather than the police, their role being what might be termed "aggressive patrol work" in support of the army. They seem to have been highly mobile - presumably to counteract the IRA Flying Columns, although some Auxiliary companies undertook specialist work such as port security. I may be wrong, but I suspect that activities such as house burning were, in many cases, officially sanctioned. These were the kind of tactics that had been employed in the Anglo-Boer War, some twenty years before.
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Re: 3rd West Cork Brigade

Postby bannerman on Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:04 pm

Hello lads.

I can confirm that Tom Barry was born in Killorglin, Co. Kerry. Its also interesting to note that alot of the other I.R.A. leaders in Cork at the time were not actually born in the county including Liam Lynch who was born at Angelsborough, Kilbehenny Co. Limerick, Sean Moylan who was born in Kilmallock Co. Limerick and Patrick Clancy who was born in Kilfinnane Co. Limerick. Im fairly sure Florence O Donoghue of the 1st Cork Brigade wasnt born in Cork either.

Beat that in two throws...

Padraig
http://www.warofindependence.net/

"Is doigh linn gur mor iad na daoine mora mar atamuid fein ar ar nglunaibh. - Eirimis!!!"
Jim Larkin 1913
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Re: 3rd West Cork Brigade

Postby .BeerBaron. on Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:01 am

florrie was born in kerry
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