So I'm building my kit... need some input

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So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby Maghnus Ó Sionnaigh on Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:38 am

Well, I think I'm about ready to start slowly building a good kit from scratch. My portrayal is a late 13th century Irish warrior, fighting in the skirmishes and battles associated with the English at the time.

I'll be engaged in SCA style fighting which has a few rules that I'll have to break for the sake of safety, but off the field I can be as period as I'm able to. So below is a list of what I want to do with the research that I've done, but there are gaps that I just don't have any info to go on, so some of these are guesses.

Leine - Relatively form fitting, especially in the sleeves, almost always long sleeved and made from linen. The length varies over the centuries and this is one of those gaps I've found. Other cultures show tunics growing shorter as time passes, and the evidence from later Irish artwork is no different. My guess is that there was still variation in the length at this time, perhaps from as low as just below the knee to as high as the middle/upper thigh. Likely I'll have a shorter one on while fighting.
Ionar - Similar to the leine, but made of wool and less form fitting so as to fit over it. I would guess that this also varies in length and would be comparable to the leine at any given time.
Inar - I'm not really sure if these still exist as such by the 14th century. Any help is welcome here.
Brat - Wool cloak as long as my height (6'0"). Not sure about the width... I'd guess 3/4 my height, so 4' wide by 6' tall and secured with a brooch.
Brooches/Fasteners - I'm kind of stuck on this one. Are we still in the pentangular brooch era or have we moved on from here? I know the brat is secured by a brooch. What bout the other garments?
Trius/Trousers - On the field, I'll have to wear baggy pants down to my ankles to accommodate my leg armor, which is an in-line hockey girdle with leather inserts over the padding (I'm going for mostly hidden armor). Off the field, I have no idea what leg wear I'd be using or what material would be appropriate.
Shoes - Again, on the field I'll wear comfortable boots that I'll disguise as I'm able. Off the field, likely a short, leather shoe of some kind. Links and descriptions would be appreciated.

That's where I'm at right now. I've got a picture in my head and I'm just hoping that I'm on the right track and not totally wrong about everything I've just put up.


Cheers!
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Re: So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby the_power on Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:26 pm

Leine - Relatively form fitting, especially in the sleeves, almost always long sleeved and made from linen. The length varies over the centuries and this is one of those gaps I've found. Other cultures show tunics growing shorter as time passes, and the evidence from later Irish artwork is no different. My guess is that there was still variation in the length at this time, perhaps from as low as just below the knee to as high as the middle/upper thigh. Likely I'll have a shorter one on while fighting.


Certainly around the end of the 12thC, tunics look a little more like norse-style short tunics, so you aren't far wrong. That said; no need to go for a short 'fighting' one; you can also just hike it up under your belt. You'll note that the 15thC/16thC Irish doublets or 'kern jackets' often have tabs that give room for a ruff or a bunched leine. Which was used is up to you.

Ionar - Similar to the leine, but made of wool and less form fitting so as to fit over it. I would guess that this also varies in length and would be comparable to the leine at any given time.


I'd be wary of using a non-split wool over-tunic like an ionar past around 1300. But that's gut feeling; I have very little to go on, bar a single image from 1399 of some horsemen in hoods & aketons, which may also be in such long tunics. You could go for a very short one, maybe mid-thigh, over a light tunic & trews. Very generic north-european though, and you might be looking for something distinctive.

Inar - I'm not really sure if these still exist as such by the 14th century. Any help is welcome here.


I really doubt they were here that early; check the images of doublets & when they were worn outside Ireland. It'd likely be sometime soon after that.

Brat - Wool cloak as long as my height (6'0"). Not sure about the width... I'd guess 3/4 my height, so 4' wide by 6' tall and secured with a brooch.


I think it depends on the weight of the wool. Certainly viking ones were pretty much square. Try make sure it looks like its made of three pieces of cloth, rather than one big wide bolt. I line mine, because I'm a big jessie. I've no idea if they were lined or not, but in Irish weather, it really makes a difference. Also, I tend to use seriously scratchy wool, and sleep in them.

Brooches/Fasteners - I'm kind of stuck on this one. Are we still in the pentangular brooch era or have we moved on from here? I know the brat is secured by a brooch. What bout the other garments?


I assume you mean penannular. Yes, the penannulars were likely gone by 900, but I'm not an expert on this. Annular brooches (much more of a pain to use) did replace them to an extent. Hopefully someone who has studied this will have a better answer for you.

Trius/Trousers - On the field, I'll have to wear baggy pants down to my ankles to accommodate my leg armor, which is an in-line hockey girdle with leather inserts over the padding (I'm going for mostly hidden armor). Off the field, I have no idea what leg wear I'd be using or what material would be appropriate.


What time period ? It's possible you can be pretty flexible. pre 10thC, you are talking about short trews, maybe some longer ones (see some discussions in other threads). By late medieval, there are a lot of long, tight fitting trews - similar to english hose - some with stirrups, some covering the vamp of the foot.

Shoes - Again, on the field I'll wear comfortable boots that I'll disguise as I'm able. Off the field, likely a short, leather shoe of some kind. Links and descriptions would be appreciated.


Check out Marc Carllson's website. He has mentions of various 'lucas' type shoes, and other irish shoes. By late medieval, i wouldn't have a problem wearning english style shoes, due to lack of documented shoes found here (despite knowing that there have been loads found!).
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Re: So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby Maghnus Ó Sionnaigh on Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:17 pm

Thanks John. My target date is 1290, give or take a couple decades in either direction if that helps solidify any fences you might be on. Certainly you'd see English around at this time so wearing English style shoes wouldn't be a far stretch. And yes, I meant penannular for the brooches.

All other critiques welcome! :mrgreen:
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Re: So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby brendan on Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:01 pm

Brat - Wool cloak as long as my height (6'0"). Not sure about the width... I'd guess 3/4 my height, so 4' wide by 6' tall and secured with a brooch.

The Irish were noted for their Mantles...not sure of the exact time period but I think it matches what you are looking at (1290). It was a major export. The mantles were napped and fulled (I think). This was a lto of extra work but very effective at making the cloak waterproof.

In order to make my early Irish cloak waterproof I boil washed the wool - which essentially felted it into very dense material. And it does work

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Re: So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby Maghnus Ó Sionnaigh on Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:53 pm

Were gores/gussets incorporated into Irish clothing at this time? If so, how wide and where where they located?
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Re: So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby the_power on Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:38 pm

I've no doubt that gores were coming in by the 900s, popularised by seriously beautiful Norse clothing. As for how wide and where, I think that's an exercise for the reader. We've no clothing finds from the time. The norse certainly had side & back gores. I remember seeing something about status dictating how many gores and how wide, but I think it was an english text. Also, feel free to make the most of your cloth, and make one of the gores out of two right-angled triangles, if you need to. Think cutting them like |/\/\| etc.

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Re: So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby Billy on Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:24 pm

I don't think gores were necessarily a viking introduction.

Behold gores, in contrasting colours, in an entirely native getup...

Image
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Re: So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby brendan on Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:34 am

Or at least as native as iconographic art can be :ugeek: ...but definitely known.

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Re: So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby Billy on Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:07 pm

Yes yes, of course, it's all Byzantine really, and we know nothing of what they actually wore (so let's all dress as Vikings!)

:lol:
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Re: So I'm building my kit... need some input

Postby Maghnus Ó Sionnaigh on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:46 pm

Thank you for for that picture Billy. From the Book of Kells, no?

Soon as I find out where my camera went I'm going to upload my effort of making a leine. The sleeves are a bit too lose, but I erred on the side of caution. An easy fix.

Never heard about rear gores before. Is this something that needs to be incorporated or will leaving them out work? As for the side gores, were there one or two gores per side? Mine only has one as I used the edge of each to make the sleeves and it worked out pretty well.

Lastly, what about underarm gores? I've always see modern recreations with them but I've never actually seen period artwork or pics of extant sources. Hey Billy, can you pull another one out of your hat?

Edit: What about trimmings? Did the trim the neckline, sleeves, or bottom hem in a different color. I somehow doubt they did, but I see so many renditions of tunics from EVERY culture with them, I figured it'd be a good idea to check. ;)
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