Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

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Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby Irish-American on Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:09 pm

This must be the oldest debate present day Ireland. Let's hear what you have to say
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Re: Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby gaius marius on Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:57 pm

We in short no Michael Collins was made a scapegoat after the dail said yes to the treaty in 1922 so you could say the ''Republic'' betrayed him
"The Kaiser knows the Munsters,
by the Shamrock on their caps,
And the famous Bengal Tiger, ever ready for a scrap,
And all his big battalions, Prussian Guards and grenadiers,
Fear to face the flashing bayonets of the Munster Fusiliers."

Go bua
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Re: Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby Dave Mooney on Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:00 pm

First, you seem to be missing some words.
Second, this is more a political discussion than an re-enactment one.

Third, No! He was stiffed by that shyster Dev! A politician should have went, not a soldier.
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Re: Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby mock on Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:32 pm

not a question id touch with a 20 foot barge pole normally
as dave above said he was not an experienced politician and was thrust
into treaty negotiations very late in the day,
so i myself would say no (depending what part of the country im in :lol: )
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Re: Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby Irish-American on Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:33 pm

Wow I did. And maybe it is, should I take it down? But being the American I don't know if I really have enough background to take a stand. But I just wish Dev would gone with Free State from get go and helped make it be best it could be. After all, (unless I've been led wrong) Dev pulled some sly moves in 1948 and 9 to keep the English out of Irish government. I just wonder what would have happened if they had worked together.
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Re: Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby Irish-American on Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:43 pm

Well unless you want me to keep it up, I think I'll get rid of this. Bit out of place. I just wanna thank you all for expressing your thoughts. I hope you'll stop by my original question, little less controversial. :o
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Re: Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby bannerman on Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:41 am

When my group the "Kahki and Green" re-enact the 1913 - 1923 period here in Ireland we generaly stop the shooting at 1921 we will happily discuss the civil war with people but we dont re-enact its battles/ executions etc... Its far too close to the bone at the moment.

To put it bluntly Collins didnt deliver the Republic set out in the 1916 rising or Dail Eireanns Democratic Programme of 1919, But then again De Valera never delivered it either!!! People often ask me if im a DeV or Collins man I always say Id have shot them both and let Liam Lynch sort it out!

Its usually a question that the person asking has their minds made up about already. Though its not quite as bad as the "Who shot michael Collins" nonsense and conspiracy theories.

As Dave said its more a political discussion and dosent realy belong here. But dont worry I dont think you have deeply offended anyone - and its great to see you are so enthousiastic about Irish History.

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Re: Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby brendan on Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:39 pm

The best presentation I have seen on that period is in Kilmainham jail - they give extracts from the Dhail debates on the treaty etc.
There were more than 2 men involved - and a lot of very strongly held beliefs that people were willing to die for.

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Re: Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby Irish-American on Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:34 pm

Well Patrick (may use the English spelling?)
I really like the idea of not reenacting battles. (I must admit they can be loads of fun (I speak from American Civil War reenacting) becuse you can see the tatics used and such and hear canons and whatnot. But I can honestly I've spent more time explaning how to pitch a tent or showing what people used day to day in camp then ever had shooting my pistol.
I think anyone can picure a battle as bloody mess but many what was like just siting around and what drove men to get the next and fire at another person day after day. That's the stuff I find interesting. No what I mean?
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Re: Did Michael Collins betray the Republic?

Postby gaius marius on Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:40 pm

Dave Mooney wrote:First, you seem to be missing some words.
Second, this is more a political discussion than an re-enactment one.

Third, No! He was stiffed by that shyster Dev! A politician should have went, not a soldier.


(that is ture but i did not want to did a hole for myself :o
"The Kaiser knows the Munsters,
by the Shamrock on their caps,
And the famous Bengal Tiger, ever ready for a scrap,
And all his big battalions, Prussian Guards and grenadiers,
Fear to face the flashing bayonets of the Munster Fusiliers."

Go bua
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