irelands flag

[nathan]

ok i know the tricolour is our flag but it is very modern and im sure this has been asked before but what is our oldest national flag or symbol.
i know we have a tradtion of being tribes but as an island there must have been a flag we used to distinguish ourselves with. i have had this conversation a bit lately as im studying cultural nationalism and im very curious on this
so what im asking is does anyone know what it is

[Swifty]

Best thing you can do is read Hayes-McCoy's' 'Irish Flags'.

In brief:

St Patrick's Cross (red saltire on white field) was used by Hugh O'Neill and his confederates at the battle of Kinsale in 1601/02 (depending on which reckoning you use) as a proto-national symbol which had with precedence with the Geraldines. See the Battle of Kinsale oil on canvas (poorly displayed) at Trinity College, Dublin.

The harp is first seen as an Irish symbol in a contemporary depiction of Owen Roe O'Neill's ship returning to Ireland during the Confederate Wars of the 1640's. It is later used by the United Irishmen. Originally on a blue field (see paint on James's Gate for exact shade) and, later on, the more famous green field.

There's plenty more that could be said on this subject but if you're serious about researching it get yourself in front of that book.

[bannerman]

Couldent agree more with swifty on that one.
G.A. Hayes-McCoy's' A History of Irish Flags From Earliest Times.ISBN 090618701X Published 1979 By Academy Press Raneleagh Dublin' Is the book you need. I have a copy of the book and could photocopy sections of it for your own personal use if you cant get a hold of it in the library - but do try your local library and order it there if you can.

If you would like more information on the tricolour itself and william Smithe O Briens movement that adopted it in 1848 just let me know and Id be happy to help.

The "Dal Ghreine" or sunburst flag of a yellow, golden sunburst on a royal blue field was suppost to have been of significant antiquity and is sometimes associated with Lugh and the Fianna in later folklore. It was used by the Fenians and Irish Regiments in the US Civil War with the blue field changed to green. With the revival of cultural nationalism in the 1880s it was adopted by the Gaelic League / Conradh na Gaeilge and later used by Na Fianna Eireann in 1909 and was used as a standard regimental and company flag of the Irish Volunteers in the 1913 - 1916 period. I Have a photo of the Mid Clare Brigade of the I.R.A. using it as late as December 1921 in Sixmilebridge Co. Clare.

What are you studying cultural nationalisim as part of? I have some interesting stuff on An Cumann Gaelach the Scottish Version of the Gaelic League. They stayed strictly out of politics and didnt do as well as the Gaelic League, consequently Scots Gaelic is in a much worse position which is interesting in the whole Pearse Versus Hyde debate.

Also It would be worth your while reading "Celtic Dawn" by Peter Berresford Ellis which gives the history of Gaelic Revival type movements in the six celtic countries. Its Published by Y Llofa Press in Wales and Ive seen in in a few of the more political bookshops in Dublin too.

[nathan]

thanks guys,
it is part of this years leaving cert yet i spent alot of time on the issue. as im trying to figure out that god awful question "what makes u irish?" and the main issue i wanted to figure out was do we have a traditional flag? which i personally fell we must have some form of ancient symbol for this island. but yes i shall try get hold of that book definatly

[bannerman]

As to what makes you Irish - Ernie O Malley had an interesting quote about it in the back of on anothermans wound.

Its also interesting to note that of our founding fathers. Pearses dad was Cornish (English depending on your politics!), Thomas Clarke was born on the Isle of Wight, England to Irish parents and James Connolly was born in Scotland of Irish parentage. Liam Mellows was I believe also born in England. Curious eh? Zeal of the convert I suppose.

Padraig

[nathan]

yes we are a country of many peoples. and i find with some of my friends who have english parents or roots they try that extra bit harder to be irish. geuss its a need to be accepted.