First Aid at Gigs

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First Aid at Gigs

Postby sabrewolfe on Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:29 am

This is just a quick question as too what they think about our level of first aid cover at gigs. We all know gigs where there have been a few nasty accidents such as burns, sprains and the likes but what do people actually think on this, should we have First aid cover at gigs? Should we have re-enactors trained to do this? Are we obligied to have certain levels of cover etc. ?

I know events that involve the public tend too have St.Johns or Redcross or Civil Defence or any other voluntary crowd, but we as re-enactors tend to be a bit reluctant about these guys as they A: are obligied too give attendance figures for injuries and B: tend too rush in blindly and have very little clue as too how too get safely too us and deal with our gear safely.

In terms of re-enactors being First Aiders i know several people that are highly qualified and rather generously give up their time and equipment at gigs to treat re-enactors despite the fact that this leaves them open to civil suits due to not being insured to provide aid in that capacity as they are usually not acting in an offical capacity. Lets face it folks accidents happen and its nice to be prepared although our hobby is quite safe there is still the possibilty of picking up a nasty knock, bump, break burn our everybodys favourite head injury, not too mention having your teeth smashed in.

So any comments or opinions on this, what do people think we should do or what should we have in place.
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Re: First Aid at Gigs

Postby the_power on Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:37 pm

I didn't realise that offering first aid was a sueable offence. That's pretty crappy.

I'm doing some insurance research at the moment, and would love if anyone in a group could send me on their insurance details, to see what's covered. I've two policies so far, but need a lot more. I'd like to find out if it's possible to get a single policy for all Irish living history & reenactment groups, to avail of bulk discounts.

Ideally, a 'reenactor insurance' should stipulate a number of first aiders *must* be present at an event, and that if the reenactors knew first aid, their reenactor insurance would cover them offering assistence. Brendan mentioned an event 'risk management' course. Depending on how that goes, it might be time to try work out a first-aid-for-reenactors course. That cost should be discounted from the cost of personal-injury & third party cover.

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Re: First Aid at Gigs

Postby sabrewolfe on Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:53 pm

well for example all big organizations like the red cross insure their members cannot be sued. It has happened in other countries where someone who received CPR from a member of the public has later sued them for getting broken ribs from said CPR (a not unusual side effect of same). Some EU countries have a good Samaritan act that legally demands you too render aid in the event of an accident or injury. Although a good Samaritan act was debated in the Dáil the basic gist of their decision was not too bring in such an act however they would bring in emergency legislature too prevent a genuine good Samaritan from having the arse sued off them for acting within the limits of their ability and training.

So as it stands at the moment a re-enactor offers first aid too another injured re-enactor treats him within the limits of their ability and the person later sues em for all theyve got cos they ended up with a scar or some other complication of the injury itself. The first aider has no come back at all unless the govt. bails em out.
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Re: First Aid at Gigs

Postby the_power on Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:35 pm

Or other reenactors hide the body.

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Re: First Aid at Gigs

Postby Dave Mooney on Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:31 pm

Good Samaritan laws generally protect people from litigation but any first Aid course will tell you to always ask if a person wants your help first. Never rush in and intervene. This requirement is negated is the subject is unconscious and it is believed that no Judge in the world would entertain an action against a person attempting to help another unconscious person.

It costs €5 a year to join the Red Cross and training is then free so you can top up regularly. As a member you are insured, just in case. I'm in the Red Cross and had to join to be covered for defibrillator training. I'll be getting a top up in the general first aid before the season starts.
I'd recommend focusing on head and hand injuries and recognising concussion as the top skills needed for our game. :roll:
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Re: First Aid at Gigs

Postby sabrewolfe on Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:53 am

Yeah I have too say I would agree with that im a Red Cross member as well the training they provide is excellent and its great too give back the community although the basic training course for first time members is no longer free its now €50 which is the subsidised (sp) price for members this includes all course equipment such as bandages and pocket face masks and the course notes as well all follow up training after that is free including defibs.

My next mad idea :twisted: is too try and organise a weekend for our unit where all the casualties are in full clanky kit so we can figure out some methods of dealing with stuff like chain mail and get people used to dealing with very unusual casualties. Ideally were hoping to come up with some usefull stuff thats particulary relevant too re-enactment and includes all the new protocols (granted they are changing again next year).

If there are enough people interested in doing a one day course in Emergency First Aid with the Irish Red Cross I can organise a class at a cost of €8�(eighty quid is displaying weirdly for some people) per person with a maximum of Ten people in a class this could be run at places like the Training venue in Ballymun. I think it would be a great idea for each group too consider getting a person trained up as a first aider its handy for accidents and gigs and you never know whose life they may end up saving. :?:
Last edited by sabrewolfe on Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First Aid at Gigs

Postby Bandraoi on Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:06 pm

I have my paediatric first aid training and certification for work, and my event security personnel training for other work(with registration pending) which includes very basic first aid and general health and safety. Does this make any difference to insurance policies?

I'd like to be involved in future training for event safety etc as described, let me know dates etc if and when they are decided.

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Re: First Aid at Gigs

Postby Neil on Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:51 pm

The way it was explained to me when I was doing first aid training in work is that as Dave rightly said the first thing you must do is introduce yourself to the person as a qualified first aider and ASK if they want help. If they're unconscious there is automatic implied consent. If the person tried to sue afterwards e.g. broken rib during CPR they must be able to prove in a court of law that they would have been better off if you had not treated them. In the CPR example obviously this can't be done as the only reason you give CPR is because the person is not breathing!!! But in a more general case you would have to seriously mess up in order for a judge to determine that you did more harm then good by administering first aid.

In terms of first aid courses I have my basic first responder first aid training but what I would really like is mountain rescue first aid training. I think this would be more applicable to the situations we would be in a gigs. We're not usually up a mountain, but we're not usually that near a hospital either.
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Re: First Aid at Gigs

Postby sabrewolfe on Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:15 am

For anyone thats interested the Irish Red Cross is running a recruitment event this Saturday in the Omni Park Shopping Centre in Santry from 12.00-16.00 if anyone is tempted the join the Red Cross or wants too find out more about what they do pop along and check it out.

The main issues that have relevance in Re-Enactment first aid are in no particular order,

Head Injurys.
Queried Spinal Injuries and neutral allignment of same.
The possible need too remove helmets if CPR is required.
Cuts and lacerations
Heat exhaustion
Dehydration
Broken bones
Sprains and strains


Alot of this is covered in your basic first aid course but some of it is a bit more specialist such as neutral allignments and dealing with spinal injuries. Would love too know the insurance logic to do with first aid at gigs.
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Re: First Aid at Gigs

Postby Dave Mooney on Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:24 am

Tried posting this last night but the site had fallen down a big virtual hole somewhere mid type.

Being up on your first aid at all puts you in a funny place sometimes and first aid at gigs may not be just for participants but spectators also.

We were doing a gig in Tuamgraney not 5 miles form where we live and there was a lot of school kids at it, involved in the workshops we were running etc. The site we were at had a stream running through it with a weir across it. The water level was low so the stream was only running through a gap in the middle of the weir. Some lads were tightrope walking along the lip of the weir to the gap and back. One lad got his feet a little wet and slipped on the lip of the weir and cut his hand on something in the water when he reached out to catch himself. He had a puncture in his palm and was bleeding a bit. I saw that his teachers were on it so turned to walk away. I got about 3 steps but something registered as not quite right so I went back for another look. The teachers were flapping and hadn't a clue. One teacher dragged the young lad away from the water...by the bleeding hand no less. I could tell no one had a bean of an idea what to do with a bleeding 9 year old. They were more interested in displaying how pissed they were with the messer that was wrecking their day. I was plenty pissed with the ineptitude of them so I just stepped in, took over and sorted him out, starting with taking him off the loon dragging his bleeding hand about the place. After the prescribed elevation, cleaning, padded dressing bandaged into palm etc. his folks were called for and he was sent to the doctors for a stitch and a jab I think. He came back an hour or so later with a new dressing and his folks for the rest of the day.
It wasn't a re-enactment/living history/workshop related injury but is was at our event and I was in kit and it was just a young lad doing what young lads do but the main thing was I knew what to do and just did it. Of course MR were the only ones that had a first aid kit on site as well, actually I think we had 3.

Being prepared to step up is the first part of first aid.

Did you know that if you're a certified first aider that ignores a scene, especially a car crash, in Germany you can be prosecuted for not attending if they find out?!
Bit heavy that.
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