I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

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I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby Finley on Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:13 pm

I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Ireland 14 - 15 Jhr. The Irish harp has probably become only later the symbol of the Irishmen.
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby Swifty on Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:37 pm

How're ye Peter

'Jhr'... sind Sie ein Deutscher? Anyway, the first known use of the harp was by Owen Roe O'Neill in the mid 17thC. There was of course no native Irish national flag at the time - the closest thing in the 14th and 15thC being the St Patrick's saltire used by the Anglo-Irish Geraldines which was later adopted by Hugh O'Neill at the Battle of Kinsale in 1601 as a unifying symbol of the Ulster Confederacy of that time. Other than that you have clan/family arms - but it is reckoned that even these were put to very little practical use by the native Gaelic Irish in Late Medieval times.

Alles bestens

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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby finnobreanan on Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:29 pm

There were a large number of flags picked up by the English at Kinsale. I have a reference book with illustrations of them, but it is at home. I will check it out.
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby Finley on Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:15 pm

Hello and Thanks for the answer.

I live in Germany, however, my heart lies in Ireland. I wanted to show together with my friend a family of the Jhr. 14-15.

But many people have written to me in this time probably only the clothes of the Englishmen were carried. There was own Irish clothing or weapons probably no more.

Maybe there is in the time around 9 - 11 Jhr. an Irish clothing and field sign or banner. A lot I have already read here and I am very grateful for it.

It is a matter for me just so authentically as possible of being. There are a lot of groups and associations in Germany they show all possible people and epochs. Ireland is absent there completely.

Greeting

Finley/Peter
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby finnobreanan on Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:27 pm

I pulled me reference book. As Swifty mentioned, there is evidence for Anglo-Irish families using their crests, also the cross of St. Patrick, Papal banners, but no reference for the use of the Irish Harp in the late medieval period.
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby Finley on Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:12 am

How is it then then in an earlier period? 9 - 11 Jhr. Was there there maybe Ogham on shields or flags?

Because there probably more than 9 - 11 Jhr. more information is I would found with pleasure a group from this time in Germany. But there is not of course enough all. Clothes, weapons and that one would counterstand thus for a camp needs. It should become just so authentically as possible. Up to a Gaelic name for the group.
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby finnobreanan on Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:08 pm

I was unable to find any documentation for the use of flags by Native Irish warriors during the 9th through 11th centuries.
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby brendan on Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:56 pm

@Finley, the information is scant.
We do know that Ogham inscriptions were deemed to have power - in the tain an army was stopped by one. Maybe using that inscription could be something that is, while not right, certainly in keeping with the epoch. People who ask you 'what does it mean', well you can tell them an answer and some of the story that goes with it.
That way you educate others while connecting with an aspect of what it was to live at that time...


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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby Finley on Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:18 am

Thank you very much for the answers.

I would like to establish an Irish group in Germany and for this reason collecting I everything, what gives it over the time 9 - 11 Jhr,..

I saw only is to be organized many beautiful pictures it for me shwer the einzelnden garments of a time. The leine
to diser time is passes so long that it to the hands or only half long. I would like what the clothing and weapons as authentically as possible be goes at.

Also a gälischer name for the flu yet would like to find I, only speak and makes schreige I no gälisch and that all naturally very heavily.

Apology if I repeat myself here and there perhaps.
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby kevin714 on Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:43 am

Finley,
Of course the Native Irish(Gaels) used flags and banners from ancient times here is some references from a webpage by Pat Brennan. A simple google search also produced references to the flags and banners used by the forces of Brian Boru at Clontarf. Sorry I took so long to reply.

"ANCIENT IRISH SYMBOLS
From the earliest times, the Irish used flags and standards which they carried with them into battle. One of the earliest reports of battle flags is in relation to the battle of Belach Duin Bolg in 594 AD. According to the tale, while looking down on an armed camp the King of Leinster mistakes the battle flags of the army for "a great stationary bird-flock of mixed colors, such was the number of banners floating on tall poles over the booths."1
In the accounts of ancient battles, there are a number of references to the banners used by each chief and clan. For example, the account of the Battle of Moyrath (637 AD) describes the banner of the Prince of Ulster as a yellow lion on a green field. O'Doherty's battle standard is described, "his battle blade of golden cross upon their chieftain's banner gleams; a lion and bloody eagle stand on glistening sheet of satin white" (Quoted in O'Mahoney's footnote in Keating, History of Ireland).

The symbol or picture displayed on an Irish banner was called a suaicheantas or samlach. "Every captain bore upon his standard his peculiar device or ensign, so that each distinct body of men could be easily distinguished from all others by those shanachies2 whose duty it was to attend the nobles when about to contend in battle, and that these shanachies might thus have a full view of the achievements of the combatants, so as to be able to give a true account of their particular deeds and valor" (Keating, History of Ireland)

In the Caithreim Thoirdhealbhaigh, a famous medieval Gaelic text, Irish warriors in 1304 are described as "advancing under banners and ensigns of device." So it is clear that the Gaelic Irish had a very long tradition of carrying flags and banners into battle. It is not so obvious whether the symbols and devices on these banners were personal to the particular captain or if they were a clan or sept symbol. Maybe there were several types or levels of symbols and banners. Maybe there were rules about their use. Unfortunately, we have only hints and circumstantial evidence about all this. A verse from the Caithreim Thoirdhealbhaigh gives us a tantalizing glimpse:

Beneath the supreme chief's standard,
uplifted be the spear-points of battle;
To display them separately is not proper,
but let all flags together form one threatening cloud...
Why would it not be proper to display the flags separately? There must have been some governing traditions about the display of symbols and banners. Unfortunately, we don't know what they were. This is important because, in English heraldry, possession of symbols and the right to display them is the key issue."
Kevin Patrick Molloy
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