Art MacMurrough

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Art MacMurrough

Postby kevin714 on Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:47 am

Is this picture of Art MacMurrough historically accurate or a victorian fabrication?
Also does anyone re-enact his period of history? It seems to be the most succesful we had against the english/normans with him and O'Conor faly and the O'Neills having many victories from approx 1350 to 1450.


art mac.jpg
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Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: Art MacMurrough

Postby brendan on Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:51 am

based on the armour it looks a bit late
There are people doing C15, but not many doing this particular aspect AFAIK - maybe Swifty? or Vimes?

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Re: Art MacMurrough

Postby finnobreanan on Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:37 pm

It is really difficult to tell from this small of an image, but it almost looks like he is wearing a long Leine covered by a cotun. I searched the web for a larger image, but couldn't find it.
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Re: Art MacMurrough

Postby the_power on Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:20 pm

I actually do have kit for this period now. I've just never turned up to a gig in it, as we don't seem to do any 14thC gigs in Ireland, and it's too long since I took a trip over for Lanark/Bannockburn. I did have a dream of dressing as the Red Earl of Ulster, and taking a troop of Anglo-Irish over to fight on the English side. Scots have it too easy at Bannockburn :)

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Re: Art MacMurrough

Postby kevin714 on Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:58 pm

finnobreanan wrote:It is really difficult to tell from this small of an image, but it almost looks like he is wearing a long Leine covered by a cotun. I searched the web for a larger image, but couldn't find it.


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Here is a larger version. He is wearing chainmail and a steel helmet at least that is what is being portrayed. I found out its from a book written in Ireland in 1868 called the Illustrated history of Ireland 400-1800 but I still don't know if its legit or not.

Does anyone have any info on the the Battle of Kenlis also called the Battle of Kells in 1398? I think MacMurrough and the O'Tooles and O'Byrnes were involved.I don't understand why this battle is not as celebrated as the Yellow Ford. From what I have gathered they defeated an English army and killed the direct Heir to the English throne,Roger Mortimer, Earl of March. And this is why Richard came back the second time and it set off the whole War of the Roses. This is huge stuff but no one has ever heard about it. Am I wrong? Any and all details would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Art MacMurrough

Postby finnobreanan on Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:14 am

Kevin,

So, I consulted my Bible ... McCullogh's Wars of the Irish Kings, and outside of the illustration by a French artist, of Art McMurrough making an attack on the English, there is nothing there at all about the warefare at that time ot Richard II. (very disappointing). He is not even mentioned.

But, from looking at the Victorian rendition from 1868, I think it is safe to say that the lithographer/artist based that illustration on the French illustration circa 1400 and made some adaptations. I would NOT treat that as a reliable histotical rendition. I have always questioned the French illustration, and personally would discount the Victorian version.
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Re: Art MacMurrough

Postby finnobreanan on Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:49 pm

Kevin,

I'm not sure what happened to your last post, but here are some other sources I found:

Curtis, Edmund. Richard II in Ireland, 1394–1395, and Submissions of the Irish Chiefs. 1927.

Johnston, Dorothy. "Richard II and the Submissions of Gaelic Ireland." Irish Historical Studies 22 (1980): 1–20.

Johnston, Dorothy. "The Interim Years: Richard II and Ireland, 1395–1399." In England and Ireland in the Later Middle Ages, edited by James Francis Lydon. 1981.

Lydon, James Francis. "Richard II's Expedition to Ireland." Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland 93 (1963): 135–149.
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Re: Art MacMurrough

Postby kevin714 on Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:15 pm

Do any of them detail the battle of Kells in 1398 in which Roger Mortimer, Earl of March was killed? Or any of the other victories of O'Conor or the O'Neills in that time period?
Last edited by kevin714 on Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kevin Patrick Molloy
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Re: Art MacMurrough

Postby finnobreanan on Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:18 pm

kevin714 wrote:Do any of them detail the battle of Kells? Or any of the other victories of O'Conor or the O'Neills in that time period?

Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of these publications, so I can't say.
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Re: Art MacMurrough

Postby kevin714 on Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:44 am

Well they appear to be from an English perspective from the titles. I am reading a book called "A short history of the Irish People from earliest times to 1920" by Mary Hayden and G.A Moonan. You can google it and read quite a few pages of it online.
It draws from the annals of the four masters etc and has a much more irish perspective. It recounts victories of Niall Mor O'Neill at Downpatrick in 1375 and Dundalk in 1392. Art MacMurrough sacked New Ross in 1394. Took Carlow in 1397. Defeated the English at Kells in 1398. Captured Enniscorthy and Castledermot in 1405. Defeated the future Henry V at Kilmainham in 1409(amazing stuff). The O'Connors of Ui Failghe(with the help of the O'Molloy's:) defeated the English at Croghan in 1385 and in 1411(capturing the Sheriff of Meath) and another victory at Killucan in 1413.
Its pretty amazing stuff you never hear about, it should be re-enacted and celebrated instead of all the defeats you hear about. Anyway thats my opinion.
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