I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby kevin714 on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:08 am

A case could be made for the sunburst being an early Irish flag attributed to the Fianna warriors pre 5th century.
This is from a webpage by Vincent Morley

sunburst.gif
sunburst.gif (1.97 KiB) Viewed 8957 times


Description of the Flag
The sunburst flag has a literary origin. Between the 14th and 18th centuries a large number of poems, songs and prose tales were written about a mythical band of warriors known as the 'Fianna' (a poetic term meaning 'warriors'), the most prominent members of which were Fionn mac Cumhail and his son Oisín. The Fianna were supposed to have lived in the first century and to have defeated Roman attempts to invade Ireland. The literature concerning them spread from Ireland into the Scottish highlands where it was suitably modified - Scottish place names being substituted for Irish, etc. - and provided the inspiration for the 'Ossianic' epics of James MacPherson in the 18th century. The literature attributed a flag to the Fianna which was called either the 'Gal Gréine' or 'Scal Ghréine' - both names which mean 'sunburst'.

The sunburst became a common part of nationalist iconography in the early nineteenth century, often being used in conjunction with the harp. In 1858 a revolutionary movement was formed which was known as the Irish Republican Brotherhood in Ireland but used the name 'Fenian Brotherhood' among Irish emigrants in the United States - 'Fenian' being an anglicisation of 'Fianna'. Not surprisingly, the new movement made use of the sunburst.

In 1893 an Irish-language movement called Conradh na Gaeilge was established and began to use the sunburst flag, probably because of its literary associations (a similar situation exists in Scotland where the sunburst is found in the emblem of the Highland Association). In 1909 a nationalist youth movement, named Fianna Éireann after the mythical Fianna, was formed and it also adopted the sunburst flag. At the present day, the sunburst continues to be used by both the Irish-language and the Republican movements.
Vincent Morley, 23 March 1997
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby kevin714 on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:33 am

clare flag.jpg
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Ireland, County Clare
An Clár

"Blue and gold were the colours reputedly carried by Brian Boru at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014. They are now used by such organisations as the G.A.A. as representing County Clare on their banners and flags."

Sounds good to me they must have some documentation in literature somewhere?
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby Finley on Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:11 am

Hi kevin714,

thanks for your answer. This has helped me a lot. Look at the gallery for a look in my pictures. There I have a picture of my plate. I'm on your mind stretched.

I am also a nice name for an Irish group in Germany. But of course my .^^^^ gälisch very bad
Greeting

Finley
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby brendan on Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:16 pm

People do like to make things up with this sort of stuff...
There are translations of the early Manuscripts on which all the modern Brian Boru stuff is based, worth looking at them if you want to backup what you are saying with more than a web reference (not that anyone makes stuff up on the internet). I should be able to remember the name of the C12/C13 story of Boru's life but cant right now
Likewise, for the sunburst, contemporary use does not guarantee historical relevance. I guess it depends on how sure you want to be about your research.

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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby kevin714 on Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:11 am

brendan wrote:People do like to make things up with this sort of stuff...
There are translations of the early Manuscripts on which all the modern Brian Boru stuff is based, worth looking at them if you want to backup what you are saying with more than a web reference (not that anyone makes stuff up on the internet). I should be able to remember the name of the C12/C13 story of Boru's life but cant right now
Likewise, for the sunburst, contemporary use does not guarantee historical relevance. I guess it depends on how sure you want to be about your research.

Brendan


Ok so prove them wrong it would not hurt my feelings but until you do why should you be given anymore credibility then them? You are just someone writing on the internet just as they are. And did you miss my first post or intentionally ignore it? It is from the Leitrim-Roscommon/heraldry website. It appears very well researched and sites its sources and uses footnotes. It states very clearly that the Irish used flags and banners in battle and documents the years 594, 637 and 1304 and the footnote for the battle in 594 says it was first verifiably transcribed in the 10th century so even at that later date it shows the Irish used flags and banners before and after the battle of Clontarf. It also shows that the person who wrote the webpage is very credible and well researched. So it is very logical to conclude that Brian and the Native Irish in general used flags and banners in battle, why are you in such denial?
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby kevin714 on Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:16 am

Finley wrote:Hi kevin714,

thanks for your answer. This has helped me a lot. Look at the gallery for a look in my pictures. There I have a picture of my plate. I'm on your mind stretched.

I am also a nice name for an Irish group in Germany. But of course my .^^^^ gälisch very bad
Greeting

Finley


Your welcome, I tried to look at your gallery pictures but it won't let me. It says for friends only, how do I gain access?
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: I search springs and pictures about banner and flags. Irelan

Postby Finley on Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:46 am

Hi Kevin714 ,

I changed the setting for the gallery!
:D
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