Medieval irish helmets

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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby finnobreanan on Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:12 pm

It wouldn't be too bad, if it wasn't for the spike. My other concern is the description: "made of polished metal with an antique finish", which makes me wonder if it is made of cheap "pot metal".
http://www.iloveswords.com/CEL_helm204.html
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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby kevin714 on Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:35 am

Can anyone show me what this helmet would look like if new? What would be the closest replica to it today? I'm having trouble actually picturing what it would look like on someone,can anyone help me out?

russkiy_volchara wrote:
Swifty wrote:This is a Late Medieval Bascinet which was yielded from the old bed of the River Nore from Clashnamuck in Co Laois very close to Borris-In-Ossory.

Swifty, do you know more sharp date of this helmet, than "Late Medieval"? 13, 14 or 15 century? And it's very interesting, does exist some science reconstruction of common shape of this helmet? Thanks in advance.

By the way, this is some pics of second Irish helmet "Helmet from Low Henney", about 1400.
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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby Swifty on Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:10 am

kevin714 wrote:Can anyone show me what this helmet would look like if new? What would be the closest replica to it today? I'm having trouble actually picturing what it would look like on someone,can anyone help me out?


Image from forthcoming Osprey book on Galloglasses. This is part of one of the eight plates painted by Seán Ó Brógáin for the title - Fergus Cannan is the writer. Hope that keeps you going until the book comes out which will be approx Feb/March 2010!
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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby the_power on Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:56 pm

Nice one Swifty, that is one scary looking dude.

Now I wish that my mail fitted over my gallowglass aketon....I've even bronze-edged it, it'd look just like in the image! But if I added enough links to make it fit over an aketon, it'd likely look too sloppy for viking type stuff. Sigh. Maybe I'll add the extra 5cm or so, then put a leather thong in the back so I can gather the mail when it's too loose.

Question; would it be inaccurate to use a 12thC bearded axe portraying Gallowglass ? I've broken the handle on my axe, was thinking of making a new handle spar-length (maybe 5 foot long) instead.

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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby kevin714 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:10 am

Wow thanks for that. I have been writing to Osprey about doing a book on the gaelic re-surgence but they didn't seem interested, this seems to be as close as I'll get for now and maybe somehow in a round about way someone noticed. I just hope its legit and fair to the Gaelic Irish.
I'm pre ordering the book from Barnes and Noble and it says it will be out March 10th. Thanks for bringing my attention to it.
As far as the helmet I can't help but think that it looks very uncomfortable especially on the nose and it would seem to limit ones vision substantially I'm just not getting it.


Swifty wrote:
kevin714 wrote:Can anyone show me what this helmet would look like if new? What would be the closest replica to it today? I'm having trouble actually picturing what it would look like on someone,can anyone help me out?


Image from forthcoming Osprey book on Galloglasses. This is part of one of the eight plates painted by Seán Ó Brógáin for the title - Fergus Cannan is the writer. Hope that keeps you going until the book comes out which will be approx Feb/March 2010!
Image
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby Swifty on Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:13 pm

the_power wrote:Question; would it be inaccurate to use a 12thC bearded axe portraying Gallowglass ? I've broken the handle on my axe, was thinking of making a new handle spar-length (maybe 5 foot long) instead.

John

John

Glad you liked that illustration especially as seeing that the model was me!! Back to axes: that type of axe you have pictured is a broad-axe or breidox (c11th/12thC) - not the bearded (skeggox) type which was used in the earlier viking age (8th/9thC). In any case seeing as galloglasses only start arriving in Ireland in the 13thC the axe is too early for galloglass impressions if you want my opinion. You could use it for interpretations of Hebridean (or Irish) warriors from the period prior to the 13thC quite legitimately enough though. For 13th/14thC galloglass you'd be best to stick to the Donegal and Mayo axe-head types which are illustrated in G.A. Hayes-McCoy's well-known article for the Galway Journal. For a 15th/16thC axe the Annaghbeg, Derryloughan or Clonteevy type is best - the last of which the galloglass in Seán's illustration is using. See also below for photo of me with my own Clonteevy reconstruction this time with Durer proto-burgonet. PS I would love to show previews of more illustrations from the forthcoming book but I can't be making any trouble for Seán with the publisher!!!

Kev

Yeah I know what you mean about the Lough Henney helmet but the field of vision wouldn't be any worse than say a 9thC viking Gjermundbu helm or 13thC Great Helm for example. Like contempory 15thC 'typical' Italian barbutas it was most similar to the Corinthian style used by the Hoplites back in the days of the Peloponnesian War - the ventilation would have been similar too. The interesting thing for me about this helmet is that it has both traits of the bascinet and the barbuta. Also the neo-Vendel type copper alloy decoration around the eyes and nasal area harking back to the distant Scandinavian roots of the these professional warriors.

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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby kevin714 on Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:10 am

Swifty wrote:
kevin714 wrote:Can anyone show me what this helmet would look like if new? What would be the closest replica to it today? I'm having trouble actually picturing what it would look like on someone,can anyone help me out?


Image from forthcoming Osprey book on Galloglasses. This is part of one of the eight plates painted by Seán Ó Brógáin for the title - Fergus Cannan is the writer. Hope that keeps you going until the book comes out which will be approx Feb/March 2010!





Image



I have to comment on this, when I posted this picture everyone kinda made fun of it but the helmet looks remarkable similar to the one in the painting with the feathers in it. So maybe these Victorians weren't so far off after all?
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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby finnobreanan on Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:11 pm

I wonder what Seán Ó Brógáin based the illustration of the Irishman at right on. Is there a surviving example of this helmet? Is their a contemporary illustration that depicts one? Did he base it on the Victorian representation (they almost look identical)? It would not be the first time that an Osprey artist got things wrong.
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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby Swifty on Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:27 pm

Image
Could perhaps be based loosely on this French woodcut of a highlander dating from 1562. Btw Finn it's the author who decides what is included and what is not when it comes to Osprey illustrations. The restrictions put on artists - especially those who know their subject can be frustrating. But I agree that basing the helmet on Victorian interpretations is unsafe when it comes to authenticity - too many fanciful elements were employed in such works.
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Re: Medieval irish helmets

Postby Swifty on Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:29 pm

And, btw, there is no known archaeological context for such a helmet in the Irish context at least and if there is in Britain, I for one, am unaware of it.
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