Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Viking, Saxon, and Early Christian Irish cultures

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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby the_power on Thu May 08, 2008 12:31 pm

Yeah, this was just that I'd some stitched helmets that were made up before I decided to use metal. It's worth mentioning that some of the gaulish helmets were iron band around the head, and the rest was leather...Boyd made up a copy he uses for Iron age work that's bronze rim, and a big leather peak. I think the helm was made from two pieces.

Though as soon as I can find a source for 1mm steel, I'll make up some light plates, and rivet them to the leather, for 16thC helmets.

John
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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby Cathal on Thu May 08, 2008 12:59 pm

Some guys here did the following:

A metal band "skeleton" of three semi-circular iron bands, riveted together on the six contact points at the base band. Then they made six thick leather triangles as a kind of inlay, fitted every inch with copper rivets to the metal bands. As result you'll get some early spangenhelm type. For additional protection there was an outer layer of rawhide, stuffed with wool or felt (not sure what exactly). To avoid the rawhide from slipping off while drying it was sewed with a leather band to the base ring of the helmet (drilled also every inch). For water protection the rawhide and the metal bands were oiled. So the rawhide got rather transparent and the shiny metal gave a golden look.
I know, there's no archeological evidence for such a construction - but it was an extraordinary strong helmet. And the main thing: the early guys had the technical potential and the material to build helmets like this. So it can't be too wrong, eh?

Unfortunately I cannot serve with pictures here - but I'll keep my eyes open this season..... ;)
...try always to be on the right end of the sword...
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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby kevin714 on Fri May 09, 2008 4:30 am

John, I am now convinced that they had helmets of metal. Due to the quote I showed you from the spanish visitor in 1396 " they wore round iron helmets like the moors and saracens" and seeing many pictures of similiar looking round iron helmets on moors and saracens from various ages with the similiar nose piece and construction. I think they would have looked more like this one on the noble riding the horse. Now if only I could find someone to make me one like this of steel. Anyone have any suggestions?
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Irish Noble.jpg
Round iron helmet on noble
Irish Noble.jpg (158.05 KiB) Viewed 9174 times
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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby Cathal on Fri May 09, 2008 5:53 am

HERE is the web page of one of our "good guys", Berengar from Austria. To see the construction process of some nice early medieval helmets and other fine stuff, click "Wie baue ich". Fortunately pictures can talk more than words do, so it doesn't really matter the page is in German.

b.t.w - if anyone is interested in his work, asking Reinhold to build something is guaranteed for free... ;)
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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby kevin714 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:45 pm

cathal wrote:HERE is the web page of one of our "good guys", Berengar from Austria. To see the construction process of some nice early medieval helmets and other fine stuff, click "Wie baue ich". Fortunately pictures can talk more than words do, so it doesn't really matter the page is in German.

b.t.w - if anyone is interested in his work, asking Reinhold to build something is guaranteed for free... ;)


Cathal can you interpret this for me?


>
>es hat einfach länger gedauert, es ist unheimlich schwierig,
>Informationen über den Helm zu bekommen.
>
>ich habe mich umfangreich informiert und bin zu keinem
>befriedigendem Ergebnis gekommen. Wahrscheinlich war der Helm eine
>Gitterkonstruktion, die von 4 grossen Spangen und dem Stirnreif
>gehalten wird. darunter ziemlich sicher eine dicke Lederschicht aus
>Sohlenleder(4-5mm). der Wangenschutz bestand aus 3 -4 Lamellen, die
>auf Leder aufgenietet waren, und als Helmzier einen Pferdescheif.
>
>was meinst du ?
>
>beste grüsse
>
>Berengar
>
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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby kevin714 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:50 pm

The famous painting of Strongbows wedding shows the Irish in steel helmets with nose pieces, does anyone know the source for this depiction or any info on the painting? Who,what,when etc, etc.
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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby Cathal on Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:24 am

Hi Kevin - here we go:

"It did last longer and was awful difficult to get informations about the helmet.
I've informed myself broadly whitout any satisfying result. Propably the helmet was a kind of lattice construction, tightend by four large metal bands (="Spangen") and the base band. Below this there was a thick sole leather layer of 4-5 mm. The cheek protectors were made of 3 or 4 lamellas which were riveted on the leather. For decoration there was a horse tail.
What do you think?
Regards,
Berengar"


Hope this helps!
Bye now, Stefan
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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby carraig on Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:01 pm

Kevin,

The "Marriage of Aoife and Strongbow" is a 1854 painting by Daniel Maclise.
There are Irishmen there alright. The helmets are with nasals, but the overall appearance of the native Gaels is so hopelessly romanticised, that there's little, if any at all, information on accurate Gaelic apparel.

Here's the painting:

Image
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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby kevin714 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:37 pm

Thank you Phil, I did think it was a relatively modern painting but was not sure of how modern.
I was just curious becuase when I found the story of the spanish visitor of 1396AD he stated the native irish wore round iron helmets like the moors and saracens. Then when I saw the painting again I noticed those helmets on the irish looked alot like the helmets I saw when looking for examples of moorish and saracen helmets. The artist may have also known of the story of Saint Patrick's purgatory and the spanish man who made a pilgramige there in 1396 and based the depictions on examples he knew of, who knows. Thanks again for your help.
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Re: Irish Leather Helmet MK4

Postby carraig on Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:00 pm

Well, the thing we need is some information on extant moorish helmets from circa 1200-1400. The only ones I've seen are either earlier or later than this. The later ones are often with nasals, but look nothing like the cathbarr of Derricke's woodcuts or similar. The earlyy ones are more like skullcaps. Perhaps the reference to moorish helmets was made upon seeing a skullcap on a native Gael? Until someone provides us with satisfying input on 13-14th c. Saracen helmets, anything else is pure guesswork.
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