HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Viking, Saxon, and Early Christian Irish cultures

Moderator: the_power

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby Cuchulainn505 on Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:02 pm

I found the description of Cuchulainn from the Tain, it says he wore a "silk, smooth apron with its slight gold speckled border, up to the softness of his belly. Over this silky skin-like apron he put on a dark apron of well-softened black leather from the choicest parts of the hides of four yearlings, with a battle belt of cowhide to hold it." Since the cycles were being written in the early middle ages/dark ages, maybe the author or McBride felt that they described contemporary warriors a well? I don't know, this just keeps getting deeper and deeper, but I am not giving up just yet....
Cuchulainn505
Full Name: Dennis Joseph Flynn III
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:38 pm
Karma: 0

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby finnobreanan on Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:53 pm

Both of those Angus McBride illustrations come from Robert M. Gunn's website: "CELTIC History: The Ancient Celtic Warriors of Europe"
http://skyelander.orgfree.com/menu10.html
He credits McBride as the illustrator and I assume he had his permission to use them (McBride passed away in 2007). The 1st scene is only described as "King Boru (sitting) is presented a Viking head", and the second is simply titled, "Irish and Norse battle off the Irish coast". There is no explanation of the clothing or weapons in the text. I contacted the author to see if he knows where the illustrations were first used.
It seems logical that McBride was using the description in the Tain.
Finn O'Breanan
Wood Kerne

"...The O'Brennans, a sept of thieves without any right or title, ... were a perpetual disturbance to the peace of the county,"
User avatar
finnobreanan
Active Newbie
Full Name: Scott Cross
 
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Karma: 14

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby Cuchulainn505 on Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:40 pm

The images are originally from the book "Ancient Celts " by Tim Newark from Concord Publishing.
Cuchulainn505
Full Name: Dennis Joseph Flynn III
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:38 pm
Karma: 0

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby finnobreanan on Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:20 pm

Cuchulainn505 wrote:The images are originally from the book "Ancient Celts " by Tim Newark from Concord Publishing.

I took a look at some reviews of this book and they were not very good. Newark gets raked over the coals in most for bad research and poor history. I'm not sure I want to spend the money to get a copy now.
Finn O'Breanan
Wood Kerne

"...The O'Brennans, a sept of thieves without any right or title, ... were a perpetual disturbance to the peace of the county,"
User avatar
finnobreanan
Active Newbie
Full Name: Scott Cross
 
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Karma: 14

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby oleg on Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:22 pm

Image

I've just came across an image of the cover. Enjoy :D
http://www.bran-deas.kiev.ua
Bran-Deas - group, focused on Ireland(IX-XI) located in Kiev, Ukraine.
Goddammit, sign up for free!
User avatar
oleg
Active Newbie
Full Name: Oleg Shevtoff
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Kiev, Ukraine
Karma: 8

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby Cuchulainn505 on Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:28 pm

Yes I have read the negative reviews of Tim Newarks books, but to me the title in question "Ancient Celts" is definately worth buying, definately. I plan on buying a used copy for less, but not for the info, but for the painted illustrations by Angus McBride. In my opinion the illustrations alone are simply brilliant, striking and overall superb. He really does an excellent job on them, not like some of his work which I frankly don't understand his change in style, for example the osprey Elite title "The Myceaneans" or the warrior titles "Roman Legionary" & "Imperial Roman Legionary", all of the people he draws are thick, short, stocky and squat with almost neanderthal like characteristics such as the prominent brow and hairy arms & legs. In other titles like the men-at-arms series "Arthur & the Anglo-Saxon Wars" and the Elite series "The Vikings" he paints people in realistic detail with each person having a different face from the other instead of the same generic look on everybody. He paints the details of the equipment and portrays the landscape beautifully. In the other titles he paints details & equipment very sloppy and sometimes almost cartoonish, with backgrounds that seem barely there at all. Does anybody understand this discrepancy in his work? I always was excited to see his name on different titles when I bought them but whenever I encountered his odd neanderthal style it was always a huge disappointment and I felt like a huge opportunity was lost. As far as criticism of Tim Newark is concerned I think a lot of it is exaggerated and people with an axe to grind to begin with. Newark obviously is not 100% accurate but his only flaws as inaccuracy goes is his pan-celticism views. He tends to embellish the achievements of the Celts and often romanitcises them and historical events. He clearly glorifies the Celts and is kind of biased towards other cultures, mainly their enemies. Still a lot of his history is right and its easy to separate sentiments from hard facts. The people who put down Newark are usually of the school of thought that there are no "Celts" and that they are an invention of 19th century nationals and historians who romanticised their history and made them into one unified people with a single identity and cause. In my experience those people tend to be very hostile towards Celtic history, especially those who identify with the celts and nationals from the modern day "Celtic Nations". Still, the book is great to have if just for the illustrations themselves. They are a great collection especially if you love art and history. All of the other illustrations in the book of ancient Britons, Hallstatt Celts, Gauls, Picts, Galloglass and Scots are very accurate and based on findings and artifacts, which is why the Boru/Viking pictures bug me so much. Also the fact that the Cuchulainn apron like garment is depicted elsewhere and described in the Tain.
Cuchulainn505
Full Name: Dennis Joseph Flynn III
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:38 pm
Karma: 0

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby will on Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:22 pm

I think what McBride pictured as a kind of apron is just the loose end of a very wide crios. You can imagine it when you look at a picture at montague heritage's facebook account. There's a picture of Paul Wickham sitting and having a rest during some movieshots. Its nearly the same pose as Brian Bohu on the first drawing you posted.
User avatar
will
Full Name: Juergen Will
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Frankfurt a. Main/Germany
Karma: 0

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby the_power on Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:03 pm

It looks to me like a stylized war belt. This is something well attested in roman descriptions of continental Celts, and sometimes mentioned in early Ireland. It could also be a very exaggerated cloth belt (Crois), which were more usually 7 or 8 cm across.
User avatar
the_power
Active Newbie
Full Name: John Looney
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:00 pm
Location: Dublin 13, Ireland
Karma: 17

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby finnobreanan on Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:17 pm

will wrote:I think what McBride pictured as a kind of apron is just the loose end of a very wide crios. You can imagine it when you look at a picture at montague heritage's facebook account. There's a picture of Paul Wickham sitting and having a rest during some movieshots. Its nearly the same pose as Brian Bohu on the first drawing you posted.

Very good observation, I looked at the image of Paul and there is a very close similarity there (the belt thingy, although Paul is looking very much like an Irish King! :D ).
Finn O'Breanan
Wood Kerne

"...The O'Brennans, a sept of thieves without any right or title, ... were a perpetual disturbance to the peace of the county,"
User avatar
finnobreanan
Active Newbie
Full Name: Scott Cross
 
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Karma: 14

Re: HELP! I need answers on early medieval Irish warriors!!!

Postby Cuchulainn505 on Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:56 am

well that definately an interesting possibility, the only thing however is that there seems to be one "apron" in the front and another in the back or presumably what is the other end of the front "apron". It seems to taper as well and get wider towards its end. I am not as familiar with Irish belts/crios of the period to know wether that is normal or not, as well as the decorating with what looks like brass nails or some kind of jewelry or pendants perhaps?
Cuchulainn505
Full Name: Dennis Joseph Flynn III
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:38 pm
Karma: 0

PreviousNext

Return to Early-Medieval

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron