The Irish in Britain

[Freebeard]

ok, this is inspired by the talk on were the Romans ever in Ireland, and the talk of the Antoninus and hadrian's walls.

i know that many later historians such as Bede and Nennius mention the Irish as being in Britain, raiding and attacking.
I know that c500 (or 6th Century) the Irish seemingly colonised a section of North Britain in what is now Argyll.
i know of the Uí Líatháin and the Déisi in Cornwall and Wales.
I know of early accounts of scotti, and the attacoti (derived from the Irish 'Aithechthuatha' - meaning "rent-paying tribes"}

but does anyone else have any other info on there being Irish in Britain, and who they were, during the time of Roman occupation?

[gaius marius]

Of the top of my head irish tribes cameto Britian between the leaving of the roman army/rule 410AD(Auther's time) and the coming of the Anlgo-saxons 500-800AD. The coast of cumbria, wales, Cornwal and i think they went as far inland as Manchester.


I dont know if all this info is right but i will look it up to be sure

[Nerva]

Along with the formula for Cement, building straight roads is another thing the Irish forgot

[Freebeard]

well, i know there is evidence of irish attacking the northern territories of roman occupied britain by the 3rd century. they certainly settled, or at least are mentioned as settling, by the withdrawal of roman occupancy. i know they were mentioned by Rome as being part of the "Barbarian Conspiracy" of AD367-9.

but what i'm looking for i guess is any info on the names of the tribes, apart from the Attacotti, the Dál Riada, the Déisi, the Uí Líatháin.

the scotti that are mentioned are these peoples that i am looking for. has anyone any info on them? apart from the general info given above, and that the name might, and i stress might, mean something like "pirate" or "raider"???

[Nerva]

Seriously though Freebeard, you ask a very interesting, and very important question. I'm afraid that I cannot contribute as it's well beyound my period of knowledge. Pullo is probably the man for this question.

[gaius marius]

Seriously though Freebeard, you ask a very interesting, and very important question. I'm afraid that I cannot contribute as it's well beyound my period of knowledge. Pullo is probably the man for this question.

Thanks i will try to not let my head get too big

[Freebeard]

so, Pullo, what be it/they?

[gaius marius]

well, i know there is evidence of irish attacking the northern territories of roman occupied britain by the 3rd century. they certainly settled, or at least are mentioned as settling, by the withdrawal of roman occupancy. i know they were mentioned by Rome as being part of the "Barbarian Conspiracy" of AD367-9.

but what i'm looking for i guess is any info on the names of the tribes, apart from the Attacotti, the Dál Riada, the Déisi, the Uí Líatháin.

the scotti that are mentioned are these peoples that i am looking for. has anyone any info on them? apart from the general info given above, and that the name might, and i stress might, mean something like "pirate" or "raider"???

Scotti was the Latin term for Irish. it was not a tribeal grouping. They were more likely coming to Britian as Pirate's because durning the 300s-400AD the Legion was no more and it was replaced with a Part-time millita and also with the empire ripping into The westen and eastern Empire, almost content civl war and the east stelling the best units of the army Britan was rip for Pirate's to start raiding the provinc and the Romano-Britrish just could not hold them and also the Anglo-saxons off

[Morcant]

A subject I can probably help with.
The western coast of Britain was fairly gaeliziced by the Vth century, and probably earlier on. Several historians tend now to disregard migrations as myths, such as the foundation of Dal Riada or the exile of the Deisi. By this time travelling by sea on short distances from eastern Ireland to western Britain was maybe easier than travelling by land, and thus populations on either shores of the sea shared probably more than populations separated by mountains. This is particulary the case for Argyll. Populations living there may have been gaels since ages ago, at least far earlier than the Vth century when Dal Riada is supposed to have been founded. Of course populations travelled and move from one shore to the other, and elites established their power here and there. This should be more viewed as a continual flux for centuries than as "invasions" and brutal take-over of Pictish lands.

The wide repartition of Ogam inscribed stones in Wales (easternmost stone at Silchester!) show there was a good deal of Gaelic speakers there circa 500 AD. Interestingly, the local elites were both spoking Gaelic and Latin, and maybe Brittonic too. It is even thought by some scholars Ogam script originated in Britain, and was then bring to Ireland along with elements of Britain's Romano-christian culture. Most famous one was christianism, but there is also the pennanular broochs for exemple.

There is a good deal of discussion to do about both Deisi and Attecotti. Both seemed to be "inferior" tribes, forced to military service or chased from their lands. Both could be generic names for those tribes. So it is not unlikely some went to Britain to seek a better fortune, first in raids, but then also acting as foederati for the Romans and afterwards the Britons. There are several late roman units from the late IVth century Notitia Dignitatum bearing the name of the Attecotti.

They were more likely coming to Britian as Pirate's because durning the 300s-400AD the Legion was no more and it was replaced with a Part-time millita and also with the empire ripping into The westen and eastern Empire, almost content civl war and the east stelling the best units of the army Britan was rip for Pirate's to start raiding the provinc and the Romano-Britrish just could not hold them and also the Anglo-saxons off

A bit off topic, Roman forces were still fairly active in IVth century Britain. Troops were withdrawed by Magnus Maximus in 383 AD, Stilicho circa 400 AD and Constantine III in 408 AD. The British usurpators probably recruited Gaels in their army.

I got several books on the subject. Will detail more if needed

[Freebeard]

well the name "Déisi" means 'vassals' or a subject peoples, but i know that they were somewhat deemed as lower class up in Leinster, and then moved SE (recorded in an 8th C text "Indarba na nDessi" (Expulsion of the Déisi). the Attacoti, as i mentioned above possibly derives from "Aitheachtuatha" meaning "rent-paying tribes". both of these indicate that they were peoples of lower classes, and not rulers at all.

The Dál Riata might be a different thing altogether ( i just finished a short thesis on the early medieval Dál Riata in (now modern) Scotland. - they nw wreck my head).
but i agree that the coast of Argyll might show evidence of earlier Irish occupation, as well as the immediate western isles off this coast. the name Dál Riata comes from a group in the north, in around Aintrim, where they were sandwiched between the Dál nAraide and the Dál Faitheach. as far as i remember the name Dál Riata was given to the area in Argyll roughlt during the 6th century, yet the name remained in Ireland also. but they were n contention for the kingship of "Ulaid", but failed, so apperently "left" due to increasing pressure from their neighbours.
but this merely accounts for the name and possible movement of the people into Scotland.

the place they moved to is what is now roughly modern Argyll, derived from Ár Gael meaning the "land/territory of the Gael".

there are many legends and myths about this too, but to waht degree can they be taken?

more to come later


in regards to Wales, i have to say i don't know as much, save that there are a few places with Irish derived names such as Llin Iwerddon (lake of Ireland) or Dolwyddelon (Meadow of the Irish)

i know the whole Ogam question too, and the possibility of it being in Wales before it being in Ireland, but what exactly is the basis of this theory again? i know one of the main aspects of it is that the highest concentrations of ogam in Wales is in the Irish occupied territories of Dyfed and Brycheiniog, and in Ireland, mostly in the southern portion. the whole bilingual element to Welsh ogam stones is cool though, especially the one at Castel Dwyran (?).
the area Lleyn in Wales is deemed to be a derivative of the Irish "Laigin" for Leinstermen, and has a place called 'Porth Dinllaen' which is the 'Port of the fort of the Leinstermen'
the Uí Liatháin of east Cork settled in Wales too,


Morcant, do you have anymore evidence for the Irish in Wales? i'd love to hear it, especially in regards to placenames.


but i guess, what i'm really looking for, if there is any other evidence to show what other groups of people were in Britain, if there is any, or is this a long and almost pointless quest of knowledge?