Iberians??

From palaeolithic to the late iron age, discuss leather underwear and rocks to your hearts' content

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Re: Iberians??

Postby the_power on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:14 pm

There was that Barbary ape skull found in emhain macha - no idea if that came direct, or via many different hands. It's not that unlikely that we were trading that far away. Chinese silk was available for sale at Carmen market.

John
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Re: Iberians??

Postby ocianain on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:35 pm

the_power wrote:There was that Barbary ape skull found in emhain macha - no idea if that came direct, or via many different hands. It's not that unlikely that we were trading that far away. Chinese silk was available for sale at Carmen market.

John


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Re: Iberians??

Postby Joze Noriker on Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:01 pm

Hm... are you sure that the kilt's origins came from the continental iron age Celts? I think here by the continental iron age inhabitants are more important pieces of celtic's "dress-code" the throusers, they are arcaeological evidented from at least 6. st. BC (our slowenian Ha belt-picture; LT A fibel from Dürrnberg, Glauberg-statue, Ha grave Nr. 994 scabard's figures, etc ... give enough evidence for some iron age's throusers).
About the genetics origins of some "atlantics coast tribes" is well known, that the DNS haplogroup "U" origins older than iron age time are, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_(mtDNA)

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Re: Iberians??

Postby finnobreanan on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:46 pm

Joze Noriker wrote:Hm... are you sure that the kilt's origins came from the continental iron age Celts? I think here by the continental iron age inhabitants are more important pieces of celtic's "dress-code" the throusers, they are arcaeological evidented from at least 6. st. BC (our slowenian Ha belt-picture; LT A fibel from Dürrnberg, Glauberg-statue, Ha grave Nr. 994 scabard's figures, etc ... give enough evidence for some iron age's throusers).
About the genetics origins of some "atlantics coast tribes" is well known, that the DNS haplogroup "U" origins older than iron age time are, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_(mtDNA)

Joze

Kilts? the Irish never wore kilts.
Think link you posted has no information on it.
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Re: Iberians??

Postby Joze Noriker on Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:08 pm

Hy! This is my opinion, too - about the connection between the kilt and continenthal iron age clothing. I didn't say the (old) Irish wore the kilt. I dont't know, if the connection here on Web site show the "real" origins of the tartan and the kilt:
http://www.tartan.galician.org/kilts.ht ... _gallaecia (link posted Conri)
But the German well known Reconstructionist Sylvia Crumbach made a beautiful Iron age clothing, here some of them (Fair in Manching) :

http://img146.imageshack.us/i/pict0417. ... &ci=0&rt=0

I posted the commentare about this Textil, on the 28. 7. here:
http://www.archaeoforum.de/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

But it seems - the Sylvia moved the foto of textil from her album. I would like to say - that the textil-pattern on foto was the same, wich are on the fotos of classical kilts and tartans by Conri's link.
but if you look the fotos that i posted in the thread "Some of our festivals" you see the Steve Lenz in a Ha clothing with skirt - this ist the only one mann with the skirt, all of the others dressed up the throusers.

About genetic evidence here:
http://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=132&st=434
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people here in text is important the haplogroup R1b - on IGENEA page name of this is "celtic" but in fact the R1bis much older; long time the genetics beliewed that R1b cames from the Cro-Magnon people, but this is not correct, see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
and:
http://www.ybase.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=537&PN=1

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Re: Iberians??

Postby Joze Noriker on Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:51 am

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Re: Iberians??

Postby Nerva on Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:51 am

finnobreanan wrote:There is very strong genetic evidence that the Irish came through the coast of Iberia and France, but we are talking thousands of years ago and pre-Celtic at that. Check out the book: Saxons, Vikings and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland, by Sykes.


Hi Finn,

Sorry to burst the bubble but the European Genome Project has determined otherwise. Basically the Irish Genome is identical to that of the Britons (England, Wales and Scotland), not the same as the western med genome...

See here http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/gen-link/1 ... 01193.html

Vale

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Legion Ireland - Roman Military Society of Ireland
Pilus Prior Cohors VIII Legionis XX Valeria Victrix

http://www.romanarmy.ie

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Re: Iberians??

Postby Joze Noriker on Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:34 am

Hi!
Yes - the Nerva wrote ok. I found the same articles, but i didn't put it here. (to look about GB people origin in the web)
By the genetic evidence is very important fact - what kind of happloide groups are evidented and the time in the past, the forst origins of some DNS evidences. The DNS code is not onedymensional fact - but has many (mixed) characteristicas of the aleles. We can speak only about how big the similitarities (in %) between some genetics groups - the genome is very mixed fact.
I remember that the GB genome has more similitarities with neolitic people - first antecestors of modern GB pupulation, this is the R1b1 happloid group, some called THIS as "celtic" but is very very older and this happloid groups we can evidented also by some others nordlands people and in many others Eu lands, too. The % of "the celtic" happloides is evidented but it is not very high and strong. Stronger are "younger middle-age's" happloide groups (Normans etc ......).

I found long debate about GB&Ireland antecestors on all empires forum.

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Re: Iberians??

Postby finnobreanan on Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:05 am

Nerva wrote:
finnobreanan wrote:There is very strong genetic evidence that the Irish came through the coast of Iberia and France, but we are talking thousands of years ago and pre-Celtic at that. Check out the book: Saxons, Vikings and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland, by Sykes.


Hi Finn,

Sorry to burst the bubble but the European Genome Project has determined otherwise. Basically the Irish Genome is identical to that of the Britons (England, Wales and Scotland), not the same as the western med genome...

See here http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/gen-link/1 ... 01193.html

Vale

Nerva

Vale,

I'm going to quote myself from another thread:

"Well, I wasn't going to spend the money to do it, but for my birthday, my wife bought me an "Oxford Ancestors" genetic roots kit. I went with the Matrilinial line, or had my mtDNA tested. I had done extensive geneology on my family and know for certain that my national ancestors came from: England: 5/8; Ireland 1/4; the rest (in various fractions): Germany; Switzerland; France; Normandy (yes, Vikings). No great surprise in my findings: Clan of Helena is my matriarch. This is also the dominate matrilinial line in all the British Isles (Including Ireland) and a better part of Europe.

I suspect that the original inhabitants of all the British Isles were the same people. Celtic influence came from Europe and left a very rich culture that survived only on the fringes of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, and Brittany. The original inhabitants remained the same and were not anihilated by invaders. The people who built stone circles and Newgrange never left...their culture simply changed by contact with Europe."

If you look at the sources of this family, you can see that they did come from southern France, track their way through the Iberian pennensula, and make their way north along the French coast to the ilands. Their are remnants of that DNA there today in Spain.
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Re: Iberians??

Postby Joze Noriker on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:22 pm

Hi!
They came not in the same historical time - i mean the first GB people came in neolithicum to the GB area and the much much younger - Celts came much latter. You wrote "the Celts left very rich cultural influence" but you write about S French&Iberian people, too. This people came much earlier to GB as the Celts. That is exactly this, what i wrote above: the happloid Gropu R1b1 is much much older than the younger Celts but many diletantic and naive genetics researchersh says this happloid group R1b1 is genetic evidence of the Celts.... This is not correct! Fact is, that the old neolitic genetic happloid group R1b1 is very strong by the atlantic nations, much hihger as by the other european nations but see here, but this happloid group is not "celtic" it is much older - from neolitic time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA) please read the text by the notice nr. 2 and 3 in the text: "Origins"

The happloid group of the first european Cromagnon antecestors was the "K" or also the "U" (Italian autors and autors from Germany - Max Planc Institute in Leipzig - i wrote them and i get the answer) and not the R1b. The new reaserch-resultats shows complete different story about the european genetic's origines.
The oldes european genetic's code cames from time 28 000 BC. Are this evidences "celtic" - too?

The all of Europe is celtic if this speculation-theory is truth, here:
http://www.ethnoancestry.com/R1b_map.html

The Links on Site above are good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#External_links

http://www.britishislesdna.com/Ireland/ireland.htm

but here is clear evidented, what i am saying all the time about this theme:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Oppenheimer

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