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Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:01 pm
by claimhteoir
In a classic ironic twist, we could just get rid of all the sh*ts, using, I don't know... maybe some swords. :lol:

Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:33 pm
by brendan
Am I the only one who read that article and wondered 'Why would you stab someone in the chest with a sword -never mind a samurai sword' ...

The 'person not the weapon' defense implies that we should decriminalize the possession and use of all weaponry except in cases where that use has a clearly criminal outcome i.e. punish the use not the possession.

Brendan

Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:35 pm
by tommyargue
The report gave 1 excellent detail.... " Dunsink Drive" not far from "Dunsink Lane". Well that explains everything.

Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:55 pm
by tommyargue
brendan wrote:Am I the only one who read that article and wondered 'Why would you stab someone in the chest with a sword -never mind a samurai sword' ...

The 'person not the weapon' defense implies that we should decriminalize the possession and use of all weaponry except in cases where that use has a clearly criminal outcome i.e. punish the use not the possession.

Brendan

Absolutely right Brendan lad. When you think about it, any idiot can buy a car and how many deaths has there been on the roads so far this year. Those deaths are accidental, presumably. What if some nutter just took it into his head to plough into a bus stop full of people. Would our wonderful and sensible and completely non corrupt government rush in legislation limiting, restricting or even banning certain types of automobiles? Of course not, for one reason... M.O.N.E.Y. Of course the media has a lot to answer for aswell, I read on yahoo news earlier today about a lady who got shot in the foot when a shotgun accidentaly discharged, the man carrying the shotgun tripped in a rabbit hole. Anyway, the pictures accompanying the story were of hadguns. Just an attempt to make a story out a minor accident.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090504/tu ... 23e80.html

Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 4:32 pm
by pajo
I actually did wonder why someone would be doin that yea... but stupidity seems to have no reasoning.... thinking about that is like thinking about the size of the universe, it just hurts ur head.... lol!

The 'person not the weapon' defense implies that we should decriminalize the possession and use of all weaponry except in cases where that use has a clearly criminal outcome i.e. punish the use not the possession.

I wouldnt suggest decriminalizing it as such... My point is, just up and banning the weapon does no use... u still have idiots who can get them, or just use something else, all it really does is causes a LOT of trouble for ppl like us, or martial artists, actual collectors etc. So something needs to be properly done with the PEOPLE. for instance, its already illegal to sell a kitchen knife or any knife or sword to a person under 18 (under 21 in some cases), maybe something more could be done there in regards to WHO can buy them. For instance, in england now, reenactors are exempt from the ban, as long as the sword is a reenactment sword etc etc.... and instead of the people goin around stabbing others or trying to cut off hands or other body parts getting a 2yr suspended sentence or any of that crap actually getting a PROPER sentence. i.e Deal with them properly. The so called punishments that are in place obviously arent doing what they are meant to do.

i'm WAY over simplifying it here.. but u get the idea - I aint saying throw the whole thing out the window, I'm jsut saying an all out ban is pretty pointless, and I think most people agree... I could be wrong.

Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:37 pm
by mickeythemonkey
The attitude of the Irish Government is again knee jerk from the limited information that they are releasing the main point of this legislation is to restrict the licensing of hand guns but they are bundling in swords as well which is ridiculous.
I'll handle the gun issue first, the government (Noel Ahern) seems to think that we are developing a gun culture which again is unfounded as it is the criminal element of Ireland that seem to be obsessed with hand guns not your average Joe soap who has to go through a lot of red tape in order to own one, for sport mainly Olympic pistol shooting, and I believe that this will pretty much kill of any chances of us getting a medal there.
Looking at it from the governments perspective I assume that the fear that some of these pistols will fall into the hands of criminal gangs, having there serial number filed off and end up being used in crimes, but there is a simple solution to this if they test fire each pistol they will have a copy of the striation marks eliminating the serial number problem, but as i said i think this is a knee jerk reaction so they haven’t thought of that.
If the Olympic council of Ireland is contacted they may lend there support which will put a bit more weight and numbers behind the argument.

Now the main topic Swords I've done some research on sword crimes and found two cases.
One where some guy walked into a pub and chopped off another guys hand in front of a lot of people and clearly wasn't a martial artist and seems to be a one off incident, Ill get back to what may have prevented this later and what i believe is the real solution to the issue.

The second case is a young father (26) who states that there where a group of young lads causing damage to his car on several occasions, and one particular incident he in his own words approached the lads disarmed one that was carrying a sword and gave chase through a local field, one of the neighbours reported it and the gards perused with the help of the garda helicopter the young father was arrested and charged.
While in court the young Father said he had disarmed one of the lads and received a wound to his hand consistent with such an event and produced a receipt for previous damage to his car which was disregarded because he had not reported the previous incidents to the gards and received a pretty severe sentence if I recall correctly 6 years.

I recognise the dangers of these incidents and don't want to make light of them but compared to crimes committed with knifes these crimes would be far less than 1%,and I don’t�e the Government trying to ban knives, I know that suggestion of banning knifes is laughable to a responsible person who has knifes in their kitchen, but so is banning swords to responsible sword owner, and this is the point that the Government is missing, and if this legislation is Passed it looks like sword owners will become criminals overnight.






At this stage I would like to make some points anyone who practices martial arts tends to follow the Budo code in one form or another which, is peaceful stressing the power or the pen or in this case keypad, and private collectors will have some understanding of this code, and use their swords as display only.
So with this in mind i would like to put forward what i believe would be one practical solution to the issue.

The National Sword Database

* A privately held list of all sword owners in the country with one central import zone, With the following rules and categories and supports.

Categories

*Sword owners involved in martial arts sharp.
*Sword owners involved in martial arts blunt.
*Junior Sword owners involved in martial arts sharp.
*Junior Sword owners involved in martial arts Blunt.
*Private Sword Collectors.

Rules

*All sword owners (sharp) must be 18 Years of age (with the exception of 16 year olds that have reached black belt level in any existing sword art with the permission of their Sensei of Master and existing junior sword owners)
*All existing swords and new imports should be photographed and recorded including type of metal, sword smiths signature, manufactures name, owners name, address and telephone number whether blunt or sharp.
*Modifications and repairs should be reported to the database where new photos and a new registration will take place.
* One central import area for all new swords entering Ireland where they will be recorded.
*Access to the data base will only be voluntarily released to the authorities in relation to a crime with permission of the sword owner, where a sword has been used as a weapon and has been identified as having specific marks to a sword on the database.
*Where a sword crime has occurred in the area of a registered sword owner or owners you will be informed and asked if necessary to voluntarily present your sword to the relevent authorities for inspection so that you can be ruled out of any investigation.
* Where a sword has been damaged beyond repair it shall be regarded as such presented to the database head office, checked, decommissioned and sent for recycling, and the owner will be issued with a cert of decommissioning and recycling.





Supports

*News letter when new legeslation is proposed.
*Access to legal support.
*Support when ordering swords or problems relating to consumer rights.
*Decommissioning and Recycling.
*A political voice in support of responsible Sword ownership.


I'm asking all sword owners for there support and suggestions on this issues and i believe that if we all come together on this, that we have a good chance of at least becoming involved in the debate and having some influence on the legislation.
If the Governments issues are addressed before the legislation reaches the dail it will be much easer to prevent responsible sword owners becoming overnight criminals.

Anyone interested in putting together a demonstration for Noel Ahern and an introduction to Budo Arts please let me know, as education is the answer to ignorance.

Please lend me your support on the boards or email me at nationalsworddatabase@gmail.com
If you would like to register a sword email me, and I promise to keep administrative costs to a minimum.

Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:15 am
by Amhran Nua
mickeythemonkey wrote:The attitude of the Irish Government is again knee jerk from the limited information that they are releasing the main point of this legislation is to restrict the licensing of hand guns but they are bundling in swords as well which is ridiculous.

Agreed, while at the same time its perfectly legal to buy a compound bow, something I have witnessed taking down full grown deer and black bears. The thinking seems to be that if you point it at anyone, it becomes a firearm. Guns have been tightly controlled for decades, but gun crime is on the rise, nuff said really. I think the restrictions on sword ownership to younger people should remain in place though, the idea of a national register or licence has some merit as well. Education in their proper use and handling would be a neccessary element as well, schools of swordsmanship, which would have the added benefit of people who would come here for the purpose of being educated in their use, an economic bonus.

Stopping things by banning them is a time honoured exercise in futility.

Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:04 pm
by Amhran Nua
brendan wrote:Don't get me wrong, something like this would be a good idea but there is no government money to pay for hobbyists to do what they enjoy.

And yet it makes economic sense, imagine how many tourists would come to see a proper old style knightly duel or joust, in the full flamboyance of the day, as part of a larger sporting event? Never mind the aforementioned advantages of giving people other soical options than sitting in a noisy pub. Not to beat me own drums or anything but in the policies there in the sig we have a broad based plan to use government funds for that very purpose. Half a billion might sound like big money overall, but its around 3% of the public sector pay bill, so around 1% of the total cost of government at the moment, and the benefits would be immense.

All we need to do is let enough people know about it! :D

Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:43 am
by the_power
I could double my take home pay if I moved to Switzerland, due to lower taxes on people and businesses. Taxing people even more to pay for hobbies doesn't seem that sensible. As you point out, it'd be cheaper to ban alcohol completely and save the money, have people richer and healthier, and able to fund their own hobbies.

John

Re: another sword attack..

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:47 pm
by Amhran Nua
the_power wrote:I could double my take home pay if I moved to Switzerland, due to lower taxes on people and businesses.

Does that include indirect taxes such as VAT?

the_power wrote:Taxing people even more to pay for hobbies doesn't seem that sensible. As you point out, it'd be cheaper to ban alcohol completely and save the money, have people richer and healthier, and able to fund their own hobbies.

I didn't say it would be cheaper to ban alcohol. It would be more expensive to ban alcohol. The sad fact remains however that there just aren't the alternatives to the pub in Ireland today, I mean real social alternatives, not just places where you are sat with your mouth open looking at a show. As such hobbies like computer gaming wouldn't be eligible since they are largely non social in nature. The benefits of top down government support for hobbyists are immense:
-- Cultural benefits: the growth and flourishing of the local and national culture, something I would say falls into the remit of the government, which has its own benefits in terms of morale and social cohesion.
-- Social benefits: reduction in alcoholism, giving alternatives to young people (including some of the feral gangs terrorising suburban estates), and enhancing the profile of arts which might otherwise fall into obscurity.
-- Economic benefits: the potential in tourism in the case of reenactment, growth in small local export based businesses for the likes of handicrafts (woodworking, bronze smithing, what have you), and of course the networking effect, getting people into contact with each other. Also the more knowledge a country has, the better it is off, economically.

There are a lot worse places taxes could be going, and its not like this is the only place we would advocate spending taxes. In fact its a drop in the ocean, a drop which nonetheless produces serious bang for your buck, and so should be one of the first areas targeted.

Besides which we are talking about cutting off a lot of the fat in government, and redirecting the funds to more valuable and productive areas. Depending on how the sums tally up, that might not even entail a rise in taxation. The cost of government has doubled since 2004, after all. Yes, doubled.