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Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:04 pm
by knightofredemption
As suggested I have set up this topic thread for all posts dedicated to Clontarf. :D

Re: Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:09 pm
by brendan
we have discussed elsewhere that we would like to see a super dooper celebration of the 1000 year anniversary of the battle of Clontarf.
We have also discussed our ideals of a perfect event. And for different people this means different things.

My intention is to try and get people thinking about what this commemoration should be. So, if you are interested I would like you to think about the questions below.

Rather than clog up the board with partial anwers that drift into nothing it would be great if people could sit down with one or 2 others (No more than 5!) and figure out what they would want it to be. Also, writing stuff down here too quickly might mess up other people's creative flow on the topic.

At the moment I plan to meet up with people and take down their thoughts on the subject AFTER They have been thinking about it for a while. Some people are already several years into this so it is easier for them

The questions:

Scope: What is it that you want to see done? Are you thinking of one big event or many small ones; a theme park or a travelling display - this is all about the ideal. There should be no detail at this stage, just something that can be distilled into a couple of lines of text. Think big.
Customers: Who are the customers? Is it schoolkids or sponsors? Ambassadors or anarchists? Reenactors or general public? This will decide on how the whole thing is done because everything should be based on meeting the needs of the customers.
People: This is about the people who are involved in the 'thing'. Are we talking about reenactors only? Does this include teachers etc? Does it include amateur drama and professional productions? This is important as each of these groups will have needs that need to be met. What we want here is a single statement which defines how these groups are to be involved in the event - and what is in it for them
Issues such as who organises the 'thing' can be decided after we know what it is that we want to run, who we are running it for and how people (such as reenactors) are to benefit from the event happening.

Once you have something like this THEN you can start looking at setting specific objectives of things that must be done.

Let me know if some/all of this makes no sense. I have tried to avoid jargon which may have made it more confusing


Re: Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:30 pm
by martynm
look ! can we just try and keep it as a Re-enactment event and start working on it as soon as possible!! and not let it turn into a Geekfest ! :geek: :ugeek: we are RE-ENACTORS! we Re-enact history full stop! :evil: when we organise a show all the rest can be added along the way !Teachers, schools,Am Dram , Professional Productions......... :roll: before we even think about all that ! we need to sort out a organising Committee ! a definite Plan,budget,venues for various related events around the country? etc . can Barrys bunraty bash be incororated! Killmallock? has Dave anything in his area [Boru Country ?] Athlone ? something in in the North?? we need to sort this out and the rest will follow ! there is a big interest from groups in GB IN Clontarf ! and no doubt in Europe as well!! :shock: :) MARTYN; Cu Glas/Knights Hospitaller Ireland Re-enactment

Re: Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:25 am
by Dave Mooney
No, We can't!

Sorry Martyn, You're way out on several counts. Clontarf is, will be, more than a mere 're-enactment'. A 're-enactment' of the Battle of Clontarf, and I'm using the word in it's proper usage there, is only a small part of it. I must protest that some of us do more than just 're-enact'! Maybe you missed that.
A lot of us are capable of doing lots of other things. Some of us educate and teach, some research and interpret. Some of us actually then share that information with others for the good of all.

Living history, of which re-enactment is a part of, has grown up big time! Some bits are still lagging behind though. This isn't going to be some ropes around a football pitch and a row of tents affair. This is going to be a different beast entirely. Everything we've done before (and got right) will come into play but new ground will have to be broken to make this thing. It may well re-make or brake the hobby/genre so all aspects need looking at. Some of us out here are working behind the scenes spanning the gap between heritage body, college, school and 're-enactor' to get them to work together not just for each other. Not just for this 'project' or 'programme' either, and it is both, but for the genre in general. We're talking in terms of 'Heritage' and 'Sustainable Heritage' these days never mind 'history'. History is only part of it. Experimental archaeology, which is another thing some of us do BTW, will be involved as well.

The work has started. The communications are flying and people are meeting up to talk about it. Joined up in the thinking is where it's at!

You did hit on one point though. What lead-up events will you guys be planning? I'm seeing Clontarf as a 6 year plan that builds resources and sets up the genre for a very positive future.

Here's a scary one for you Martyn, I sat up in bed the other morning with this thought, and this is one for many of us out there...
"How old will I be in 2014 and will I be fielding?"

Don't you dare try limit me with your 'We only re-enact' micro philosophy Martyn! [Yes, I'm annoyed]

I'd like to know what you mean by 'Geekfest BTW'? What the #### does that mean? We not allowed to think big thoughts now? Bit 1984 isn't it?

[Edit for missing letters]

Re: Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:08 am
by knightofredemption
Here's a scary one for you Martyn, I sat up in bed the other morning with this thought, and this is one for many of us out there...
"How old will I be in 2014 and will I be fielding?"

Ouch :( Painful as that thought is for some (me included) It highlights the fact that many of the folk that will be involved in this are not even out of school yet, or members of a re-enactment group. So recruitment is key to the issue. Should this be part of the early publicity, a real drive to involve younger folk into the hobby so they can be ready with the skills and talents needed for this event?

Let me jump the gun and say yes, its a no brain-er. The last thing we need, is to do this as a last minute thing. So start thinking of ways to get the word out to schools and the top of my head I would say Sean would be one of the folk with the inside track on this one.

Can we stop this growing differentiation between "living history" and "combatants"? we are all part of the same picture, two side of the same coin. We will all need to pull together to achieve this. I for one will be leaving the battle to the "youngsters" and looking to find a less energetic role for this event ;)

Re: Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:26 pm
by Dave Mooney
I'd like to clarify that my comments are not intended to divide the genre into camps. 'Re-enactment', 'Re-enactor', 'Combatant' etc. are easier words to use to describe a lot of what we do. They are handles. (I'm sure we've covered this elsewhere by now)

However by definition a 'Re-enactment' is a portrayal of actual previous events, A 'Combat display', either between 2 or 2000, doesn't necessarily have to be and A 'Historic demo' or 'LHE' is usually a static or stall based exhibit, but can be a lot more. They are all 'Living History'. To even use the term LH is inclusive of Combat displays, either as re-enactments of historic events or just as a display of arms and skills from historic periods. The perceived divide is due to those that want to see more happen at events and to take different forms and those that only care to see x amount happen.

All these things are valid but in the Clontarf context all departments need to be on the ball and, and this is what my last post was about, why shouldn't 'we' have a say in/on the whole scheme? We're supposed to know it all after all. There are some of us out there with a grander vision for heritage, history and living history and I'm not willing to let those ideas be closed in because one or a few want to stick to what they know best.
No bother lads, no one will make you have to direct traffic at the gigs, or whatever your fear is. What you do or specialise in will still need to be done so there is no threat.

I say get behind the document Brendan is compiling. This could be the brief for the entire Clotarf programme. If we leave it up to Dublin City Council (for example) who's to know what they could run with. It could be any old rubbish. I think it's important that we get our stamp on it early. I for one have started to work on Shannon Development (not to be confused with Shannon Heritage, SD own SH) this week. We, MR & a few others, have been instrumental with the founding of the 'Forum for History and Heritage' (working title) which will hopefully be generating educational material for schools, heritage sites and tour guides while also generating academic endorsed kit & historic guides for re-enactors and the like. We are in the (slow, softly softly) process of establishing groups at a few seats of learning and mean while I'm collecting contact details of any interested parties who think this hobby is for them. (Martyn asked what we were up to, well now you know). We have also applied for a Heritage grant for another project but more on that later.

If we can put the brief into the hands of the project manager we get to influence what happens and it's over all theme and look. I for one would rather be surrounded by a couple of round houses with fenced gardens adjacent to a Viking Long house (or two) with a massive Dal gCaisian hoard camped out back than be stuck next to Punch and Judy show and a Ferris wheel. So do as suggested by Brendan and sit down with your pals and get your wish list together. And at this stage that's all it is, a wish list. However big or small you think get what you want to see on that document! Then we'll have something to really talk about.


Re: Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:02 pm
by martynm
Dave! i dont need a lesson on the Contents of what Re-enactment is from you or anyone else!! all i was trying to say was that for an event this size there are some basics that need to be look'd at before we start adding on a whole host of other stuff that will be included and is very important to an undertaking like this ! and as for your
comment on what Re-enactment is? its simple we take events that have happened and we re-enact them ,wether it be experimental Archeology, recreating clothing,weapons,the way people lived. the list is endless!! but at the end of the day we Re-enact it through various media ! as part of a display or show ,event whatever you want to call it its re-enacting history! as for the Geekfest thing! :ugeek: i have seen many a good idea on deminished into nothing by intelectual snobbery! debated till it goes away! so in 2014 you will be older Dave but i fear none the Wiser. :)

Martyn Cu Glas/KHI re-enactment.

Re: Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:36 pm
by Dave Mooney
as for the Geekfest thing! i have seen many a good idea on deminished into nothing by intelectual snobbery! debated till it goes away!

Yeah, You got an example? Your 'counter snobbery' could be snobbery itself you know?

I for one will be keeping an active interest in the whole scheme if I can.
Anyway I came on to post the below text as I thought it might get the real juices going. It's about 10 mins old.

I was just on to Dr. Cathy Swift who reports:

Was up at Tionól at weekend and Má�e Ní �aonaigh gave paper on 14th fragment on Battle of Clontarf which lists out battalions present with Brian at Clontarf - who led them and which contingent (i.e. Muscraige Tire, Corco Baiscind etc. was in each section (army divided into three sections). I took extra copies of the handout which doesn't give the full text (I don't think this text is published anywhere) but the bones of what's there are also published in a much later Leabhar Oiris so can be found in that. I've got some stuff from 12th Cáít�éím C��cháin Cha�il as well talking about banners attached to various contingents to identify their origins - this is I think specifically in relation to sea fleets but presumably also worked for land armies? So we could put up suggestions for breaking up the army behind different banners with titles and localities if people felt that would add to it? According to 12th C Book of Leinster Táin, the�ifferent troups would also be dressed differently - one lot in red with long hair, the other one in blue with shaven heads etc. etc - this may be just pie in the sky mythology but it would be good craic to investigate maybe?

Cathy y/quote]

That stuff above and breakdowns on the likes of Wikipedia see. make for a good template on a series of events to build up to the main one. It would be good to establish a time line with relevant events and characters.

Re: Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:36 pm
by wolfvine
Greetings my friends.

Just reading some of the post guys and it seems like the discussion a getting a little heated. Now I can't preach :lol: but it does seem we all want the same thing and thats a blinding event to celebrate Clontarf.
I think Brendan's idea of gathering information and suggestions from various interested parties is a good one.
Sorting out who fought who and how can wait for a little while. There are some bigger issues such as a venue. Where do we find enough bodies we can field, thirty bodies on a lawn is not going to hack it ! We are looking at a least a thousand and more. Where will they come from ? A lot of the numbers will be from across the sea and we need to look after them when they get here. We as a community can not use other events such as 'Hastings' as a template, we have to create our own stanard of excellence. Money! such as State funding, private investment etc. and all of them will want their pound of flesh. Just a few things to think about.

Re: Clontarf Plans and Ideas.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:43 pm
by brendan
See: We have already had one big argument about what Clontarf should be. That is a good thing!
Different people care about different aspects of the thing.

The reason for getting all the info together in one place is to try and maintain some level of cohesion when sponsors and other stakeholders start to get involved. We all have very definite ideas of what we want "Clontarf" to be - and definitely know what we don't want.
And yeah, some of the ideas are mutually exclusive.
How we figure out that conundrum is another day's work. Lets get the ideas out there first.