Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby michaelcarragher on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:22 am

Thanks, Padraig. We'll wait for the video.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby Jd66 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:56 pm

Same story as the rest of you, arrived at 7 but didn't get in.

However, a kind soul sent me a recording today. To be honest found Regan's contribution very annoying, he kept saying he didn't want to talk about the history only about the historians, quite frustrating. And it seems kind of nasty to keep having a go at people's work rather than talk about the events themselves.

Had the discussion revolved around the actual issues I personally would have found it much more interesting. For my money David Fitzpatrick's and John Borgonovo's opening statement were the most interesting parts of the night.

I'll post the recordings on the Irish Story maybe?
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby thepremier on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:12 pm

Thanks for the reports.

If you could post the recordings that'd be great, Jd66. History Ireland never got round to posting the audio of the 1916 hedge school, so I wouldn't rely on their getting this one up.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby DrNightdub on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:20 pm

Thanks, Padraig & John - it'd be great if the recording could be posted on the Irish Story. Even if HI poosted it up, I probably wouldn't be able to access it - I can't get into the latest issue of the magazine online even though my sub is paid, so it's not been a good week for me and HI!

Bit disappointing to hear that about Regan, like I said before a lot of his recent work seems to veer more towards historiography and less about history. Am still enjoying re-reading "Irish Counter-Revolution" though.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby bannerman on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:35 pm

In fairness John - i thought Regan did very well his contribution was sharp, relevant and, I thought very well recieved by the audience. Hart was the man who promoted and popularised the rather dubious theory about widespread sectarianisim in Cork I think it was fair in the context of the debate Harts work created to critically examine his work. Regan also spoke about his personal like of Hart and spoke about how he felt Harts premature death was a loss to historical and academic debate. If there was a poor speaker there it certainly wasnt Regan! So id reserve judgement until id heard the recording Kieran.
http://www.warofindependence.net/

"Is doigh linn gur mor iad na daoine mora mar atamuid fein ar ar nglunaibh. - Eirimis!!!"
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby DrNightdub on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:46 pm

Just as an afterthought on one particular aspect of last night's subject matter.

The suggestion has frequently been made, from various quarters, that the killings of Protestants in west Cork in April 192 may in part have been motivated by a desire for retribution for what Catholics in Belfast were being put through at the time. I find that whole argument quite untenable, for two reasons:

1. The stats
The Cork killings happened at the end of April, yet if you look at the deaths in Belfast by month, fatalities actually showed a considerable drop during that month:
- Feb: 45 18 protestant, 27 catholic
- Mar: 63 26 protestant, 37 catholic
- Apr: 36 16 protestant, 20 catholic
- May: 67 29 protestant, 38 catholic
In other words, the pogrom was actually slackening off, yet it's still presented as a rationale for the Cork killings? Not only that, but in the second half of April, i.e. more top of mind at te time of the Cork killings, the majority of deaths in Belfast were actually among protestants.

2. The psychology
I'm sure patterns of reprisals perpetrated by the Tans / Auxies elsewhere in the country will also reflect this, but as I'm more familiar with the northern stuff: all the evidence points to reprisal killings being committed in the white heat of rage in the immediate aftermath of whatever death was being avenged. So two Specials are killed and the five McMahon family killings happened the next night; an RIC officer is killed and the Arnon St killings happen the same night; two catholics are killed in south Armagh and the Altnaveigh killings happen the next night. Reprisal killings simply weren't something that was mulled over for weeks before being committed, retribution was sought much quicker than that while the anger was still burning.

I've no firm opinion on what the motivation for the Cork killings actually WAS, but I'm very sure that the motivation WASN'T anything to do with the north
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby Jd66 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:09 pm

I dunno Padraig, I just find it boring banging on about what's in what footnote when we could be talking about the actual history, but hey, just my opinion.

Good contribution from yourself though.

Also Keiran, good post. Not enough of this type of analysis at the talk in my opinion.

Have the recording ready to go just going to ask people if it's alrigth that I put it up on the Irish Story.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby bannerman on Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:20 am

Hello All,

I havent done much work on Cork specifically but I think Regan makes a very good point about Frank Busteed's (the son of a Protestant) involvement and timing of the Dunmanway killings coinciding with the capture of the British officers. Also Niall Regan has made a good point about the killers targetting a small number of Catholic Loyalists the same night.

Its also important to point out that the killings occoured during the Truce when the political and military situation in Ireland was even more chaoitic than it had been during the War of Independence. Its interesting to note that wether they were deliberately sectarian in motivation or not the Dunmanway killings were the exception rather than the rule and that a meeting of senior Church of Ireland figures immediatedly afterwards declared that appart from events in Dunmanway “…hostility to Protestants by reason of their religion has been almost, if not wholly, unknown in the twenty six counties in which Protestants are in the minority.”

Finally it was interesting that no one at the History Ireland Hedge School even mentioned Gerard Murphy's "The Year of Dissappearances" - I think alot of those who support Hart's arguments about sectarianisim have quickly realised that Murphy's book cant be taken seriously as factual history.
http://www.warofindependence.net/

"Is doigh linn gur mor iad na daoine mora mar atamuid fein ar ar nglunaibh. - Eirimis!!!"
Jim Larkin 1913
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby Jd66 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:21 am

No go with those recordings I'm afraid, HI want to put it up on their own site only. Which is fair enough.
Last edited by Jd66 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby thepremier on Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:50 am

Thanks anyway. They'll probably be motivated to put it up soon because of the level of interest.
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