Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby Na Fianna Éireann on Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:22 pm

thanks my grand father fought in war of independence and i his medals , i was asked to form a re enactment group doing this so to publise it at events that i ntend to do in the future along with my german stuff i was making a banner and just wanted to experiement with differing permutations , its really just to high light when at an event and most likely i will re constute the inscription . i am appreciatitive of your input as it is informative and also it is constuctive in its approach ,, my thanks to you mairtin

oh ps i think the brigade was established in 1919 and joe mc kelvey was designated as commander , oh i wish i had listened to my grand father with greater enthuaism
Na Fianna Éireann Fíor inár gCroíthe Neart inár Láimhe Comhsheasmhacht inár dTeanga.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby DrNightdub on Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:08 pm

Shergar, I just dug out the BMH statement of Sean Cusack, he was O/C Belfast Battalion when there was just the one - my granda was his Adjutant. He said the Brigade was formed in early 1919 (so you're right on that one) with himself as the first O/C - and my granda's service record indicates he was Brigade Adjutant from 1920 so I'm guessing Cusack brought my granda with him. Initially the one Brigade covered the whole of Antrim - including Belfast - and east Down, so the separation into three separate Brigades didn't come until later.

According to Cusack, McKelvey succeeded him as O/C Belfast Battalion but obviously later went on to command first the Belfast Brigade and then the whole of the 3rd Northern Division.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby Na Fianna Éireann on Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:10 pm

yes excellent information one of my neighbours now deceased was adjuntant to frank aiken and the stories i heard over the years are amazing , his name was elver monaghan
Na Fianna Éireann Fíor inár gCroíthe Neart inár Láimhe Comhsheasmhacht inár dTeanga.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby Garry O Brien on Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:10 pm

Hello Lads, re the Third Northern division, have a look here:
http://irishvolunteers.org/2011/08/i-r- ... -division/

Regards,
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby Na Fianna Éireann on Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:05 pm

Thanks Gary yet again , the National Volunteers Organisation comes up with valuable photos and information, I remember my grandfather telling me about this particular raid by the authorities which gained information on the almost complete Belfast IRA membership and the subsequent raids that followed.
Na Fianna Éireann Fíor inár gCroíthe Neart inár Láimhe Comhsheasmhacht inár dTeanga.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby CDfm on Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:31 pm

There is a very good paper by the same authors which covers a lot of this material on the Aubane Historical Society website with a free download.

http://aubanehistoricalsociety.org/troubled_history.pdf


http://aubanehistoricalsociety.org/
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby michaelcarragher on Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:00 pm

Vincent,

This is, as you say, a “very good paper”, if a polemical one. That Niall Meehan is not a professional historian hardly takes from the worth of his views, and besides, the whole revisionist issue being a divisive one, polemicism is inevitable, and a review of rival polemicisms necessary for the honest student of history to form as near to an objective opinion as anyone can ever get.

That honest student, however, would need to bear in mind the source of this paper: the Aubane Historical Society, a front for the British and Irish Communist Organisation and therefore an historical society in the same way that, say, Martin Mansergh is an historian.

This is not to equate Mr Mansergh with Aubane: I don’t doubt that Mr Mansergh is an honourable man but for all his impressive knowledge of the past he is not an historian because he is a politician, and no man can serve those two masters. Even more so, no Communist organisation can be an historical society in any meaning of that adjective.

So, while Brian Murphy’s piece is honest and sincere, his claim that Aubane’s “publication of [original source material], all with important introductions, indicate[s] a willingness to restore original source material into the historical narrative”, is quite touching in its naiveté (for I cannot believe Fr Murphy would try to mislead people).

To take one such document he mentions, Percy Crozier’s The Men I Killed. The choice of that tasteless title for a single-volume distillation of Crozier’s four sizeable books is itself significant; A Brass Hat in No Man’s Land, or Impressions and Recollections, would seem to be more suitable, but The Men I Killed better suits the message to be sent about a British general and leader of the Black and Tans. The fact that old Percy was a thoroughly nasty bit of work offers plenty of opportunity to hoist him on his own petard.

Percy wasn’t the leader of the Black and Tans at all, of course, but of the Auxilliaries; but not all of the people that Aubane seeks to seduce will know about the Auxies, while all can be depended upon to know about the Black and Tans, and react in Pavlovian fashion. And it will come as news to historians that in the inter-war years “Britain was still ‘the’ Great Power”. She had long ceded this position to Germany and the USA, and if Germany was for the moment ruined by its rash war, Britain had also been ruined in defeating Germany, and the USA, by a very wide margin, was “the” Great Power.

So either this historical society takes a very slanted view of history, or its business isn’t history at all, but propaganda.

To take another example, Casement’s book, The Crime Against Europe, which sets out to prove that the Great War had been engineered by Britain and that Germany was the victim. This is edited by Brendan Clifford and, while I have no intention of buying his book (I have my own copy), I doubt that Mr Clifford presents it as an interesting example of the absurd and malicious ideas held by many “advanced nationalists” of the day, as an historian would have to.

For instance, Casement claims that

“German militarism” … is no more a threat to civilisation than French or Russian militarism. It was born, not of wars of aggression, but of wars of defence and unification. Since it was welded by blood and iron into the great human organism of the last forty years it has not been employed beyond the frontiers of Germany until last year…. German militarism has kept peace and has not emerged beyond its own frontier until threatened with universal attack.

Now this is complete nonsense. No historian doubts that Bismarck’s wars were anything but cleverly engineered wars of aggression, or that the unification of Germany was anything but the imposition of Prussian might over all the other states. But most damningly of Casement, he denies the Herero and Maji-Maji campaigns, each of which claimed probably 60,000-80,000 African lives, or the deliberately induced famine in Ostafrika, which may have killed 300,000. And I doubt if Mr Clifford provides any correction to that misinformation.

However, even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and good propagandists know that the most effective lie is the half-truth, so they leaven their lies with truths and “verisimilitudes”. My review of The Coolacrease Controversy—on p. 4, above—illustrates this trick.

This particular pamphlet is worth reading. Just always remember to bring a very long spoon when you sup with the devil. And watch for poison mushrooms in the baloney sauce.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby Irish Volunteers on Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:39 pm

"the Aubane Historical Society, a front for the British and Irish Communist Organisation and therefore an historical society in the same way that, say, Martin Mansergh is an historian. "

Talk about making broad sweeping statements, and then to attempt to give a balanced opinion and evaluation of the contents is ridiculous.
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby michaelcarragher on Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:44 am

Your logic is unclear, Gerard. How is a comparison "a broad sweeping statement"? Martin Mansergh is a politician, and a fine man who has brought no dishonour on his profession; the Aubane Society is a front for a political organisation. Those are statements of fact, not "sweeping statements". Can you name any politicians or political organisation that you would trust to make unbiased evaluations of historical events? If you think you can, do you think that other people, across the political spectrum, would share your trust?

Any actual claims made in my submissions are, I think, supported by evidence, but if I've overlooked any and you care to point those out, I will either provide supporting evidence or retract the claims.

Can't do fairer than that?
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Re: Historical Revisionism and the Irish War of Independence.

Postby DrNightdub on Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:38 pm

Michael, my dad has always taught me that the best way to discuss an issue is:
1. Assemble ALL the facts
2. Then form a conclusion
3. Then build your argument
4. Then slaughter your opponent

Now you could argue that the case put by the Aubane / (Brian) Murphy / Meehan side of the house is slightly weak as the Auxiliaries' famous "list of helpful persons" referenced by Meda Ryan has never - as far as I know - been put on view. But other than that one flaw, their highlighting of facts and of omissions by the opposition is fairly relentless - even polemical. If their argument stacks up relative to ALL the facts, then that's all that counts and whether those making the argument were previously or are members of BICO, the Benedictine Monks or the Flat Earth Society is irrelevant - assessing the validity of an argument doesn't imply agreement with whatever agenda that argument is intended to further.

On the other hand, the Hart / (Gerard) Murphy side of the house has been shown to be deeply flawed - and that's being charitable. If Aubane et al versus Hart et al were a boxing match, the referee would have stopped the bout a long time ago.
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