Shield opinion

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Shield opinion

Postby kevin714 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:51 pm

What is everyones opinion on the historical accuracy of this shield for the 16th century not the painting on it but the construction and with the leather trim?

http://www.steel-mastery.com/index.php? ... ent_id=110
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: Shield opinion

Postby Swifty on Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:18 pm

Ugh - I almost lost last night's kebab... Anyway... asides the diameter that targe looks nothing like the two extant 16thC examples known in Ireland. Make your own would be my advice!
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Re: Shield opinion

Postby kevin714 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:59 am

I realize that, I own a replica of one of them made for me by Joe Lindsey the targe maker from Scotland. I was just wondering if perhaps there was some other evidence of different styles of shields in use like I have heard of possible wicker shields being used also. I sent him a picture of one of them and he made a replica of it for me. I am considering having a replica of the O'Donovan targe made also.
Attachments
irishtarge 2.jpg
I sent him this picture
irishtarge 2.jpg (24.99 KiB) Viewed 6842 times
Back Targe and sword 013 (Medium).jpg
And he made this replica from the picture
Back Targe and sword 013 (Medium).jpg (35.63 KiB) Viewed 6838 times
My Targe.jpg
My Targe.jpg (146.84 KiB) Viewed 6846 times
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: Shield opinion

Postby finnobreanan on Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:31 am

Kevin, the second shield image is the only historical shield/Targ from this period of Irish history that I am aware of. The reproduction doesn't look too bad, but that tiny boss has to go. Just my opinion.
I had the historic shield reproduced by a friend of mine who is a leather worker.
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Re: Shield opinion

Postby kevin714 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:10 am

finnobreanan wrote:Kevin, the second shield image is the only historical shield/Targ from this period of Irish history that I am aware of. The reproduction doesn't look too bad, but that tiny boss has to go. Just my opinion.
I had the historic shield reproduced by a friend of mine who is a leather worker.


There are 2 just as Swifty said, there is the one I posted from a collection of a Mr Bell I believe but don't quote me I don't have the book in front of me and then there is the O'Donovan targe. What picture are you refering to? Did you attempt to post a picture or are you talking about the ones I posted. The bottom 2 are the same targe and the top is the picture of the original thats in the Osprey book Irish wars. Do you have a picture of your targe? With my targe I went with the expertise of Joe Lindsey a very reputable Targe Maker from Inverness, Scotland. We had discussions on whether it should or did have a boss or not and he felt from his study of the picture that it did. So I went with it, since he is the expert.
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: Shield opinion

Postby kevin714 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:18 am

Here is the O'Donovan targe, notice it has a small boss also just as Joe Lindsey said the other should.
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O'Donovan shield.jpg
O'Donovan shield.jpg (64.99 KiB) Viewed 6837 times
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: Shield opinion

Postby kevin714 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:27 am

This is the page before the one above with the first part of the description of the O'Donovan targe in the last paragraph. It also mentions the umbo or boss of bronze.
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O'Donovan shield description.jpg
O'Donovan shield description.jpg (102.72 KiB) Viewed 6835 times
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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Re: Shield opinion

Postby finnobreanan on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:35 am

AH! Now I see! The image you posted first was of another famous targ (the family which owned it I can't recall at the moment) and that you had the leather tooling replicated to. I am unfamiliar with the O'Donovan targe image you posted. The combination of the two designs threw me off.
Very interesting tooled design.
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Re: Shield opinion

Postby Swifty on Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:55 pm

kevin714 wrote:I realize that, I own a replica of one of them made for me by Joe Lindsey the targe maker from Scotland. I was just wondering if perhaps there was some other evidence of different styles of shields in use like I have heard of possible wicker shields being used also. I sent him a picture of one of them and he made a replica of it for me. I am considering having a replica of the O'Donovan targe made also.

There is certainly literary evidence for the use of wicker shields from this period in the northern half of the island at least - but alas no definitive archaeological evidence for these as of yet.

Lindsey's reconstruction of the D.M. Bell shield is pretty good I must say. A small point I would like to make though is that I would not have included the boss - it's conical profile gives it a very 17thC and Scottish look to my eye - interestingly no 16thC targes have survived in Scotland - only 17thC and 18thC examples. Do you have any pictures of the back of it?
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Re: Shield opinion

Postby kevin714 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:23 pm

Swifty wrote:
kevin714 wrote:I realize that, I own a replica of one of them made for me by Joe Lindsey the targe maker from Scotland. I was just wondering if perhaps there was some other evidence of different styles of shields in use like I have heard of possible wicker shields being used also. I sent him a picture of one of them and he made a replica of it for me. I am considering having a replica of the O'Donovan targe made also.

There is certainly literary evidence for the use of wicker shields from this period in the northern half of the island at least - but alas no definitive archaeological evidence for these as of yet.

Lindsey's reconstruction of the D.M. Bell shield is pretty good I must say. A small point I would like to make though is that I would not have included the boss - it's conical profile gives it a very 17thC and Scottish look to my eye - interestingly no 16thC targes have survived in Scotland - only 17thC and 18thC examples. Do you have any pictures of the back of it?


Here are pictures of the back. As far as the boss goes again I defer to Mr Lindseys expert eye and opinion on it. I'm sure he has seen his fair share of targes and it does appear that there is a nice spot for one right were it should be, this together with the fact that the only other targe from that period clearly has a brass boss puts the evidence strongly in favor of it having a boss in my humble opinion. It would look like it was missing something to me if it just had that empty space in the middle of the circle of tacks. Perhaps just one large tack in the center would work but other than that if it was meant to be exposed I would think there would be a design there like more knot work or something. But we are all entitled to our opinion and we can agree to disagree. I am very happy with what I have.
Attachments
Back Targe and sword 009 (Medium).jpg
Back Targe and sword 009 (Medium).jpg (42.19 KiB) Viewed 6795 times
Back Targe and sword 011 (Medium).jpg
Back Targe and sword 011 (Medium).jpg (33.43 KiB) Viewed 6792 times
Back Targe and sword 012 (Medium).jpg
Back Targe and sword 012 (Medium).jpg (43.29 KiB) Viewed 6793 times
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the ancient sword is O'Molloy of the freeborn name, full power was granted to him and he held his country uncontrolled" O'Dugain(d.1372 AD)
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