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Re: Scians

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:08 am
by Swifty
kevin714 wrote:Thanks Dave, How does the grip on this scian look to you? Does it fit the bill as an historically accurate piece that would have been good for combat use?

I think the scian - and its handle - which you have there looks very good Kevin and I would regard it as a decent authentic reproduction. Based on the known archaeology, I would advise that the leather sheath should have the longitudal stitching on the back - on the flat of the blade - as opposed to the back edge. The archaeological evidence - in contrast with Derricke - also indicates that the lower portion of the handle was also sometimes covered by the sheath - but there is not enough evidence to conclude that this was always the case. Is it your own piece?

Re: Scians

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:52 am
by rinuccini
From Boullaye de Gouz writing in the 1640s at the time of the Catholic Confederacy:
“The Irish carry a scquine or Turkish dagger, which they dart very adroitly at fifteen paces distance; and have this advantage, that if they remain masters of the field of battle there remains no enemy”.


Hugh

Re: Scians

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:56 pm
by kevin714
Swifty wrote:
kevin714 wrote:Thanks Dave, How does the grip on this scian look to you? Does it fit the bill as an historically accurate piece that would have been good for combat use?

I think the scian - and its handle - which you have there looks very good Kevin and I would regard it as a decent authentic reproduction. Based on the known archaeology, I would advise that the leather sheath should have the longitudal stitching on the back - on the flat of the blade - as opposed to the back edge. The archaeological evidence - in contrast with Derricke - also indicates that the lower portion of the handle was also sometimes covered by the sheath - but there is not enough evidence to conclude that this was always the case. Is it your own piece?


This particular piece is not mine but mine is being made as we speak, the only difference will be I asked for a darker color on the grip to match my targe. Its from Arms and Armor.

Re: Scians

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:58 pm
by kevin714
rinuccini wrote:From Boullaye de Gouz writing in the 1640s at the time of the Catholic Confederacy:
“The Irish carry a scquine or Turkish dagger, which they dart very adroitly at fifteen paces distance; and have this advantage, that if they remain masters of the field of battle there remains no enemy”.


Hugh


I take it that means they would throw it very effectively,correct? I wonder if there is any other accounts of this?

Re: Scians

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:19 pm
by the_power
There are reports of "Irish knifemen" fighting with the English at Crecy in the 1400s. I could just imagine a load of Irish with targes & scians behind the knights and men-at-arms - as the knights knock over other knights, and men at arms injure opponents, they could concentrate on moving onto another opponent, knowing there were some cheap & nasty guys behind them despatching stunned or injured opponents.

As Swifty says, going up against a knight or a man-at-arms with a glaive or sword & shield would be suicide with a knife. But it would be the perfect arms for foraging, scouting, taking out injured folk and filling in the ranks. It's quite possible that they fulfilled a similar position back home, when fighting alongside the Gallowglass - I wouldn't fancy my chances with a scian vs. spar-axe...but again, great for cleaning up injured Gallowglass!

John

Re: Scians

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:04 am
by rinuccini
kevin714 wrote:
rinuccini wrote:From Boullaye de Gouz writing in the 1640s at the time of the Catholic Confederacy:
“The Irish carry a scquine or Turkish dagger, which they dart very adroitly at fifteen paces distance; and have this advantage, that if they remain masters of the field of battle there remains no enemy”.


Hugh


I take it that means they would throw it very effectively,correct? I wonder if there is any other accounts of this?


Actually I took it to mean that they would comes to 15 paces, rush forward, stab then run for the hills if not succesful. This seems to fit in with other discriptions of how agile the Irish were when it comes to fighting hand to hand. Also don't think the scian would be much good as a distance weapon.

Re: Scians

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:34 pm
by kevin714
Swifty wrote:
kevin714 wrote:Thanks Dave, How does the grip on this scian look to you? Does it fit the bill as an historically accurate piece that would have been good for combat use?

I think the scian - and its handle - which you have there looks very good Kevin and I would regard it as a decent authentic reproduction. Based on the known archaeology, I would advise that the leather sheath should have the longitudal stitching on the back - on the flat of the blade - as opposed to the back edge. The archaeological evidence - in contrast with Derricke - also indicates that the lower portion of the handle was also sometimes covered by the sheath - but there is not enough evidence to conclude that this was always the case. Is it your own piece?


Dave, is this what you meant for the sheath, the one on the right between the red x's? Is that the correct stitching?

Re: Scians

PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:25 pm
by Swifty
kevin714 wrote:
Swifty wrote:
kevin714 wrote:Thanks Dave, How does the grip on this scian look to you? Does it fit the bill as an historically accurate piece that would have been good for combat use?

I think the scian - and its handle - which you have there looks very good Kevin and I would regard it as a decent authentic reproduction. Based on the known archaeology, I would advise that the leather sheath should have the longitudal stitching on the back - on the flat of the blade - as opposed to the back edge. The archaeological evidence - in contrast with Derricke - also indicates that the lower portion of the handle was also sometimes covered by the sheath - but there is not enough evidence to conclude that this was always the case. Is it your own piece?


Dave, is this what you meant for the sheath, the one on the right between the red x's? Is that the correct stitching?


Not particularly - although that stitching is better. What I meant was that the stitching should not be at the edge of either the blade or the blunt spine but on the flat on one of the two sides - and by default the other side would then be the decorated side.

Re: Scians

PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:09 pm
by kevin714
Do you have any examples you could post?

Re: Scians

PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:33 am
by Swifty
Reproduced from Page 2 of this very same thread - as seen in the Osprey Warrior Series 'Galloglass 1250-1600':
Image
As you can see the decor is on the front, the sides are unstitched, and the back - the side you can't see in this particular pic - bears the longitudal seam. Copied from the famous example from Kilcumber Bog in Offaly.